TIM SEBASTIAN: As far as you're concerned with Yasser Arafat, good riddance - you don't want him back in the Palestinian territories and that goes for your friends in Hamas as well?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Not really. The last few weeks he spent in Ramallah his relationship with Hamas was actually improving. They were doing very good business together.
TIM SEBASTIAN: But you say today his group no longer speaks for the Palestinians - these are your words:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: For some time they have not been speaking for the Palestinians. Since they accepted Oslo and went along the path of peace-making in accordance with the terms of Israel and its supporters in America they had stopped speaking for the Palestinians.
TIM SEBASTIAN: But they may have stopped speaking for you and they may have stopped speaking for Hamas but there's plenty of popularity left among the Palestinians in the territories isn't there?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well they speak for a certain segment of the Palestinians undoubtedly. This is like a tribe and Yasser Arafat was always the chief of the tribe.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Exactly. So your slogan isn't exactly right is it when you say today his group no longer speaks for the Palestinians; he speaks for quite a lot of the Palestinians doesn't he?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Quite a lot or a few - that really depends. I mean we haven't had a [genuine] election and we cannot have general election because of the current situation but ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: No, but you have opinion polls don't you?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... there are indications and the indications tell us that today it is Hamas that really represents what the Palestinians want. The Palestinians want freedom.
TIM SEBASTIAN : Well you say that but that's not backed up by the opinion polls. The poll conducted by the Palestinian Centre for Policy & Survey Research between September 23rd and 26th gives Hamas 22% compared to, I think it's the 26% or more which is given to Fatah and the Independence.
They were asked / people were asked: Will you give your vote in the next local election to candidates from Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad or Independence and only 22.2% said Hamas. ... isn't much of support is it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: I question the credibility of this Centre and of the studies that it makes. What I would say is that give the Palestinians the freedom of choice for a change and see what they choose ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: But you just don't like the results - that's the reason you reject this isn't it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - there are many academics and many observers who have cast doubt on these centres which are funded by the United States of America and do research that serves the peace process and those who are involved in it.
TIM SEBASTIAN : Why does it serve the peace process? There hasn't been any peace process to serve, so it hasn't served anything has it ... ?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well the Israelis killed the peace process:
TIM SEBASTIAN:... apart from getting the opinions of Palestinians which you don't happen to like. The fact is, according to the polls, Hamas represents under a quarter of the population. That's maybe an unpalatable fact to you but that happens to be borne out by the figures.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: What Hamas represents today is actually what the Palestinians are hoping for. The Palestinians are hoping for freedom.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Some ... some Palestinians are hoping [for]:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: The Palestinians, most of them want to go back home. The Oslo process, the peace process in which the PLO embroiled itself gave away the rights of the Palestinians.
TIM SEBASTIAN: When the Palestinian human-rights group did a survey of Palestinians and asked them whether they wanted to go home, the overwhelming majority said they didn't and their offices were trashed; the offices of the Palestinian Human-Rights Monitoring Group were trashed as a result of it. So you don't seem to like any results and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and people like that don't seem to like any results that go against their own orthodoxy do they?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: You see that's nonsense. I as a Palestinian, I know many Palestinians around the world - I know my own family, I know my friends - we all want our homes back. Even if we live in villas, in palaces, we want our homes. Nobody has the right to steal our homes from us. Nobody has the right to bring people from outside and dump them on our land. Our land is our land.
TIM SEBASTIAN: And for that, continuing violence - that's what Hamas and your friends in Hamas speaks for?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: We don't call it 'violence'. We call it 'legitimate struggle'; we call it 'jihad' ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Well it doesn't matter what you call it. It's still murder isn't it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: You see the problem is that you're starting the story right from the end. Begin from the beginning. The beginning is when we, the Palestinians were removed from our land ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: But let's deal with the act. The act is murder isn't it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: It's not murder.
TIM SEBASTIAN: You can call it 'struggle' but it's murder, isn't it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No, no, no. The Vietnamese people struggled and freed themselves. The South African people struggled and freed themselves.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Does it make you feel better to call it 'struggle' rather than to give it its real name of 'murder'? When you see Israeli teenagers with their blood spattered all over the ground, does it make you feel better to call that 'struggle' as opposed to 'murder'?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: If the Israelis want it to stop, it can stop today but the Israelis don't want it to stop ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: No, but please answer my question: Does it make you feel better to call it 'struggle'?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: It doesn't make me feel better to see anybody killed but if you come and kill me and kill my children and drive me out of my land what do you expect? I have to defend myself - on the basis of humanitarian law, on the basis of international law ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: You're not defending yourself because you can't defend yourselves can you? You're not defending yourselves.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Of course we are:
TIM SEBASTIAN: These are revenge killings aren't they?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: We are defending ourselves. Our land is occupied. Ask the people who have occupied the land. Why are they occupying our land?
TIM SEBASTIAN: How useful have your tactics been - tell me that?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Very useful - of course very useful:
TIM SEBASTIAN: Why? Why?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Very useful. Look ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: The rest of the world rejects the Palestinian cause and the Palestinian suffering. You don't get any sympathy from the outside world these days. What use have your tactics been to your people?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: At one time the Vietnamese people were rejected. At one time Nelson Mandela was called 'a terrorist'. It doesn't matter what some people say today. What matters is what you want to do, what you know your objective to be. Our objective is to become free human-beings in our land. Our land is occupied by aliens, by invaders.
TIM SEBASTIAN: And so you should negotiate:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well the Israelis don't want ...?
...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: The Israelis don't want to negotiate.
TIM SEBASTIAN: The Israelis said they hadn't had a partner for negotiation.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - let them come and negotiate with Hamas. Why didn't they accept the truce?
TIM SEBASTIAN: Why should they?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Why didn't they accept the truce offered to them by Hamas?
TIM SEBASTIAN: Dr [T]amimi, why should they negotiate with an organisation that is dedicated to their destruction? Why?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well if they don't want to negotiate then the vicious cycle will continue. Why did Tony Blair negotiate with the IRA?
TIM SEBASTIAN: How can you negotiate with a group like Hamas whose Charter says so-called peaceful solutions are incapable of restoring Palestinian rights
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Peaceful solutions at their expense?
TIM SEBASTIAN: ... so they renounce all peaceful means:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Peaceful solutions that give away Palestinian rights are not acceptable of course but if you are fighting a battlefield, if you want to stop the war you come and say: Let's negotiate, let's sit on the table. You don't impose preconditions. The problem with the Israelis is that they say the Palestinians are terrorists. If you call me 'a terrorist', you only make me angrier.
No - I am a human-being. I am a victim. I have a cause. Come and sit down with me and let's discuss. We can discuss a truce and Hamas offered a unilateral truce for fifty days - [a] unilateral ceasefire that was not respected by the Israelis.
TIM SEBASTIAN: What is being offered now by Hamas - a cycle of violence, continuing violence ... ?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: That's what Sharon offers.
TIM SEBASTIAN: No, this is what you said.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: That's what Sharon offers.
TIM SEBASTIAN: You say Hamas now enjoys the support of the Palestinians and will follow a different way from the Palestinian Authority - continuing struggle with the Israelis - that's your view?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Of course. If your land is still occupied ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: ... continuing violence:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - continuing struggle. You see you're replacing the words. It is a legitimate struggle.
TIM SEBASTIAN: But you're giving it a meaning that actually takes away some of the force of what it is that you're doing and the true meaning. When you go into a marketplace, as happened on Monday - a suicide bomber and kills people indiscriminately, you call that struggle?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: If Sharon was not killing Palestinians ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: No, please answer ... No, please answer that ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... in Palestinian towns and villages this would not have happened.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Please answer my question. You call that 'struggle' - when a suicide bomber goes into a market and kills people indiscriminately, whether it's women or children - you call that 'struggle'?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: When you force people to ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: 'Yes' or 'no'? Please Dr Tamimi answer the question
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Of course it is a struggle; of course it is a struggle ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: It's murder isn't it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: It is a struggle ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: It's murder.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... because Sharon started it. Sharon kills Palestinians ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: It doesn't matter who started it ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: It does matter of course ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: You can go back thousands of years ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Of course it matters ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Are you murdering people today ... ?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth .. of course it matters ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Are you murdering people today? The answer is 'yes':
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - you are not murdering people if you are responding to attack. We were attacked in the first place.
TIM SEBASTIAN: So those women and children are responsible for attacking you and you just simply fought back - people who die and have their bodies strewn over the ground?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Why don't you ask the question: What are they doing there? Where did they come from?
TIM SEBASTIAN: You don't like to face this unpalatable reality do you? You don't like to face the images of what your killing does in Israeli markets?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - I'm facing it day and night. I can see ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: And you like it? You like it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... I can see Palestinian children and women killed day and night ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: And the Israeli women and children ... ?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... by Israeli F16s, by Apache helicopters ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: And the Israeli women and children ... ?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... by Apache helicopters ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: And the Israeli women and children ... ?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... they would not have been killed ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: You don't like the sight of that:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... they would not have been killed if their democratically elected government did not bomb the Palestinians day and night.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Also there's always an excuse for it. There's always an excuse:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: This is not an excuse ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: No?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: This is explaining reality. The reality is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: It sounds like it:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... that we are a victim. We are victims. You slap me on my face - what do you expect [me] to say 'thank you' to you?
TIM SEBASTIAN: And who were those women and children in the Israeli market? Weren't they victims?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Why don't you talk about Palestinian women ... children who are being massacred by Sharon ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: I talked to Israelis about their violence. I'm to talking to you about that violence carried out in the name of the Palestinians. Aren't they victims as well - the Israeli women and children who are blown up by your suicide bombers?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: They are. They are Indeed. I agree with you - they are the victims of their own government. They are the victims of the people who ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: So they're the victims of their government ?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Yes - who planted them on somebody else's land?
TIM SEBASTIAN: Their own government blew them up? Their own government blew them up?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: They are the victims of whoever ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: It's not logical Dr Tamimi:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: It is logical - 100% they are the victims of those who planted them on somebody else's land.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Do you want Yasser Arafat to come back?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well why not? He's a Palestinian. Every Palestinian has the right to come back.
TIM SEBASTIAN: But you say Hamas is the one now who enjoys the support. Is Hamas planning to seize power from Yasser Arafat?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Not under the prevalent ... The current circumstances are not / the talk is not about who seizes power ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: But they've been waiting for a long time to seize power haven't they?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No, no - never; never - not under the prevalent circumstances. The current situation ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Your friend Khaled Mesha'al from Hamas said in May 2002: If we want reform let's start with the leadership. Most of the leadership in the Palestinian Authority needs to be changed. These people are not fit to reform:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: That's the demand of all the Palestinians. There has been ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: So he wants them to go. So you want to sweep them aside:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: There has been so much corruption within the Palestinian Authority and that's one of the reasons why the Palestinians have not been able to do better.
TIM SEBASTIAN: How much openness and accountability would there be with Hamas?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... Hamas is a proper institution, not a tribe like some of the other factions.
TIM SEBASTIAN: It would publish all its accounts would it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: The elected leadership ... Yes ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: It would publish all its accounts ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Of course.
TIM SEBASTIAN: ... as it's been doing up til now?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Yeh?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: This is a liberation movement. This is not a company. This is not a firm.
TIM SEBASTIAN: No, but you say it's going to be open and accountable. What guarantees are there of that?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: If you become a government - a government has to be accountable, a government has to be transparent, you have to prevent corruption - but if you are a liberation movement, the liberation movements have a different rule and a different style of ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: How so - you can be open and accountable when you're talking about others but when it applies to yourself ... ?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - if you want to talk about Hamas and the structure of Hamas we can talk at length about this. Hamas has an elected leadership, Hamas has accountability. Hamas doesn't have someone who sits in the chair of leadership unaccountable for so many decades and can do whatever he wants with the money. The reason why Hamas is trusted by the Palestinians is that Hamas, all the funds it gets ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: By some of the Palestinians - under a quarter of them according to the opinion polls - but how much support do you think ... ? If Hamas joins in the leadership at the Palestinian Authority, if Hamas in future forms a government, how much support do you think Hamas is going to get from the outside world? None. While it continues to advocate suicide bombings? Are you prepared for the international community to withdraw its support totally from the Palestinian territories?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: The international community will have no option but to deal with and support the Palestinian leadership that is truly representative of the Palestinian people.
TIM SEBASTIAN: It won't support an avowed terrorist group as they see it:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well we'll see it. We'll see. One day - remember when Margaret Thatcher said Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and he wouldn't be allowed to set foot on British soil? Remember what happened ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Different circumstances Dr Tamimi ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Exactly the same ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Different circumstances.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Exactly the same - struggle, resistance, legitimate struggle. You put up the struggle - you represent the people - you achieve results.
TIM SEBASTIAN: You're prepared to put that support in jeopardy just for your ideas and your slogans about struggle and continuing struggle? You're prepared to gamble with the livelihood of the Palestinian people in the Palestinian territories?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Do you think the Palestinians have a life? Do you think with all this that is happening in Gaza, that happened in Jenin and elsewhere the Palestinians have a life? Do you think Sharon is giving them an opportunity to eat a decent meal and drink ale (?) ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: No, but the international community is doing what it can. Since '93 the EU has contributed over $2 billion directly and indirectly to the Palestinian Authority ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well permit me ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Member States of the European Union have contributed the same amount. How much has the Arab world done?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Let's talk about the European Union for a while. The European Union is hypocritically dealing with the Palestinian issue. The European Union has the opportunity to deal independently with the Palestinian issue. It's succumbed to US pressure. The European Union ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Who is paying the salaries of the Palestinian Authority Dr al-Tamimi? Who is paying the salaries?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Who gives a damn about these salaries if they are paid to people in order to suppress the Palestinians?
TIM SEBASTIAN: It's all very well for you to say. You're sitting here in a nice suit. You live in decent conditions in London. It's all very well for you to say: Oh the Palestinians can have another seven thousand years of poverty simply for my ideas. It's all very well for you to say isn't it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well if there were a Palestinian Authority whose objective is to make life better for the Palestinians, yes you are right but if the Palestinian Authority's main objective / main function is to act on behalf of the Israelis as a police force suppressing the rest of the Palestinians who cares about such an authority? Even the Palestinians in Gaza, in Jenin and Ramallah and elsewhere don't give a damn about such an authority. They want an authority that stands up for them, that talks about their rights, that fights for their rights.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Oh and Hamas has just sat by and watched the degeneration of lawful behaviour, the lawlessness, the gang warfare that's been taking place in the Palestinian territories. Hamas hasn't been contributing to that? Of course it has hasn't it? Of course it has.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Well if you have evidence, put it on the table.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Well who has been responsible for what the UN itself, not known as a great friend of Israel, has called the clashes and showdowns between branches of the Palestinian security forces?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Hamas has nothing to do with it.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Legal authority receding fast in the Gaza Strip. Hamas has nothing to do with that?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Nothing whatsoever. These are power struggles within the Palestinian Authority itself which was created by Israel in order to serve Israel. Israel created the Palestinian Authority and Israel actually is destroying the Palestinian Authority. Hamas has nothing to do with it.
TIM SEBASTIAN: When will the violence end? What's the aim? When will the violence stop?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: It can end today if the Israelis want. If the Israelis agree to negotiate a truce agreement the violence can come to an end. The problem is that the Israelis are so arrogant ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: What are the conditions for a truce?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No conditions? Just come and talk; just come and talk.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Come and talk to who?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Talk to the people who ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Who?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... are capable of dealing pain to you.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Who? Who? Who?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Hamas or Islamic Jihad, to the PFLP.
TIM SEBASTIAN: What - sit down with Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Yes, why not?
TIM SEBASTIAN: An organisation dedicated to their extinction - the Israelis should do that?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: They have to. They have no other option. When the British Government sat with the IRA and negotiated a peace agreement that's the way forward.
This slogan 'we don't talk to terrorists' is nonsense. They have to. They have to talk to ... and the Palestinians are not terrorists. The Palestinians are the victims and if the Israelis want the way out they have no choice but to come and sit and talk without preconditions.
TIM SEBASTIAN: And you have no preconditions? Hamas has no preconditions? When I asked one of your spokesmen, Mahmoud al-Zahar a couple of years ago in Gaza and I asked him what it would take to stop the fighting he couldn't give me a straight answer and in the end when I asked him a couple of times he said: I'm telling you frankly the attitude of Islam is not to accept a foreign state in this area. So he was ruling out the State of Israel in that area. You're telling me he was wrong?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - if we want to stop the bloodshed ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Well you can you answer that question. No - this is important; this is an important issue here Dr al-Tamimi. What would it take to stop the fighting - the end of an Israeli State? Can Israel live side by side? Has Israel the right to exist?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: The current violence can be stopped without having to talk about the end of Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Does Israel have the right to exist?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No, as far as the Palestinian is concerned ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: No?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - of course not. Of course not.
TIM SEBASTIAN: So what's there to talk about then? Isn't that a precondition?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No, no, no ..
TIM SEBASTIAN: You said sit down with no preconditions. That's a precondition ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: You see, that's blackmail. That's blackmail.
TIM SEBASTIAN: What's blackmail?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: This is what the Israelis and the American[s] are doing ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: What's blackmail?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: They say to us: Unless you recognise Israel's right to be in your house on your land we will not talk to you. We say to them ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: I didn't say that. I said 'right to exist':
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Israel has no right to exist in my home, on my father's land - has no right to exist. It may exist despite me. It may exist because it is powerful, because it is supported by the Unites States of America but I will never as a Palestinian, I will never give legitimacy to a state that is created on land robbed from my father, from my grandfather and from my mother.
TIM SEBASTIAN: So there are / that's your precondition then?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - you ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: You tell me one moment there are no preconditions and then you've just been listing them:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... you need to make [a] distinction between two things - between an immediate stop to the violence and that can be achieved and then we can have a truce for thirty years, fifty years, whatever that can be agreed upon. People don't need to kill each other. Let future generations deal with the problem but if you want to say to me today we can ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: So a truce with no progress whatsoever on any of the major issues?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No, of course ... Of course ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: A truce lasting thirty years?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: A truce is the beginning of solving some of the immediate problems. Once you agree to stop the killing then we can talk about other things. We can talk about how we disentangle but if they are not willing to talk ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: What is there to talk about when you say Israel has no right to exist? ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - you see ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: You want them to sign their own death warrant and then you'll talk to them?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: ... even [if] they come and negotiate with me for instance, the Israelis, I will still say it to their faces: Your entity is an illegitimate entity. It was created through theft and robbery on my land but if you want this vicious cycle of killing to stop now for a while it can be done but if the Israelis are counting on an absolute recognition of their legitimacy that they will get from no-one.
TIM SEBASTIAN: So ask your friends in Hamas to send a message, a public message to the rest of the world saying: We are ready for talks.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Of course they are ready for talks. They've said that. They've said that so many times. They've said ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: When? When? When did they last say it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Fifty days ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: When did they last say it? When did they last say it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Fifty days of unilateral ceasefire ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Dr Azzam al-Tamimi, when did they last say it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Sheikh Ahmed Yassin made this initiative before he died. The Israelis ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: That's a long time ago.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: You bring me ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: When did they last ... ? You tell me they keep saying it and you can't tell me when they last said it:
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No - you tell me / you bring me an Israeli who is interested in talking.
TIM SEBASTIAN: And meanwhile you advocate the suicide bombing. You said on an internet chat forum early in 2003: 'For us Moslems martyrdom is not the end of things but the beginning of the most wonderful of things'.
If it's so wonderful to go and blow yourself up in a public place in Israel why don't you do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Martyrdom is not necessarily suicide bombings as you call then. Martyrdom is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: No, please answer my question. It was a serious question.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: I'm trying to answer it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Why don't you do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: I'm trying to answer it because this is a concept. Unless it is explained, how can you answer it? Because martyrdom means giving / sacrificing yourself for a noble cause. Now these bombings, the human bombs ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Are you prepared to do this or not?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: I am prepared, of course.
TIM SEBASTIAN: You would [go] and blow yourself up?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No. I'm trying to explain to you ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Ah - so it's okay. So that's just for the poor and the disillusioned to go and blow themselves up? You would not be prepared to do it ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Most of the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: ... you advocate other people to do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Unless you give me a chance to explain ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: Please ... Please ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Not a single person of those who bomb themselves, bomb themselves because they are desperate or poor. It doesn't happen because of this. They do it because they want to sacrifice themselves for a cause after all avenues have been closed before them. If the Palestinians today are given F16s and Apache helicopters ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: No - please come back to my question. Please come back to my question. Why if it is so glorious and honourable to do this, why don't you do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: I would do it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: When?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: If I have the opportunity I would do it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: When are you going to do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: When? If I can go to Palestine and sacrifice myself I would do it. Why not?
TIM SEBASTIAN: So what's stopping you?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: I cannot go to Palestine. I cannot go to Palestine.
TIM SEBASTIAN: You simply can't get in?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: No, I cannot get in.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Why not?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: I cannot get in because I am not counted as a Pales[tinian]. When my home town was occupied I was outside Palestine and I just wasn't counted. I'm not considered by the Palestinians as a legitimate Palestinian / by the Israelis as a legitimate Palestinian. So as much as they don't recognise me I don't recognise them.
TIM SEBASTIAN: So this is the reason - the only thing that is holding you back from strapping on a suicide belt is the fact that you can't get back to the Palestinian territories?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: You see sacrificing myself for Palestine is a noble cause. It is the straight way to pleasing my G0d and I would do it if I had the opportunity.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Not according to Grand Sheikh Mohamed Said Tantawi of the al-Azzar Mosque in Cairo. He says groups that carry out suicide bombings are 'the enemies of Islam'. He was speaking last July at the World Conference of Islamic Scholars.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN: He says they are 'the enemies of Islam' and that this is 'a distortion' - what you're putting forward is 'a distortion' of Islam ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: And he changes his opinion three times. At one time he hailed them as the best and most noble acts; at other times he change his mind because he is appointed by the Egyptian Government and whatever the Egyptian Government tells him to say he will say. So when they told him ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: What about former Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahatir Mohamed: 'Our salvation will not be achieved by blindly killing innocent people, rather we should plan and execute a long-term development plan to excel in all fields'?. Why don't you advocate that - a long-term development plan to excel in all fields' - wouldn't that be better?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: Why don't you give life to the Palestinians first and talk about stopping all of this? The Palestinians have no life. The Palestinians are killed day and night ...
TIM SEBASTIAN: And you want to take even the life that they have with a suicide belt?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI: I don't. I don't ... You see nobody needs to tell the Palestinians what to do. The Palestinians are putting up this struggle because they are being pushed and pulled and kicked day and night.
TIM SEBASTIAN: Alright. Azzam al-Tamimi it was good to have you on the programme.
