How Central Is Muslim Anti-Semitism?

VAN SUSTEREN: Tonight, a disturbing message of hate from a source barely out of diapers, a 3-year-old Muslim girl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASMALLAH, TODDLER: Allah's mercy and blessing upon you.

DOAA 'AMER, IQRAA-TV HOST: What's your name? BASMALLAH: Basmallah.

'AMER: Basmallah, how old are you?

BASMALLAH: Three and a half.

'AMER: Are you a Muslim?

BASMALLAH: Yes.

'AMER: Basmallah, are you familiar with the Jews?

BASMALLAH: Yes.

'AMER: Do you like them?

BASMALLAH: No.

'AMER: Why don't you like them?

BASMALLAH: Because...

'AMER: Because they are what?

BASMALLAH: They're apes and pigs.

'AMER: Because they are apes and pigs. Who said they are so?

BASMALLAH: Our God.

'AMER: Where did he say this?

BASMALLAH: In the Koran.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAN SUSTEREN: It was part of an interview conducted by a Muslim woman magazine seen on Saudi Arabian television.

Joining us with reaction, from New York, is Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum and columnist for "The Jerusalem Post," and here with me in Washington, Sarah Eltantawi with the Muslim Public Affairs Council.

Welcome, both of you. Sarah, first to you. Your reaction to that tape?

SARAH ELTANTAWI, MUSLIM PUBLIC AFFAIRS COUNCIL: I think it's totally despicable. It actually really makes me sick.

The problem, though, that I see is that I think that, as Americans, what we need to not do is give these people the floor, and what we need to not do is to say take these extreme fringe of the Muslim world and, you know, perhaps even, you know, people like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell and put them on a Web site and say that represents Americans or Christianity.

And we could take the right wing from Israel that, you know, prints T- shirts that say, "A good Arab is a dead Arab," and we could let them have a conversation, and they can have the floor and dictate the conversation, or we can marginalize these people, treat them like what they are, which is the fringe, and give the floor and the microphone to the moderates and the people who are interested in making peace.

VAN SUSTEREN: Daniel, your thought? I mean, obviously, this tape is disturbing. The translation that I have says-describes Jews as apes and pigs by a 3-year-old, among other things. Your thought?

DANIEL PIPES, MIDDLE EAST FORUM: Well, I highly endorse, I mean, Ms. Eltantawi's calling it despicable. I would disagree somewhat in that this is not marginal.

As you noted, this was shown on Saudi television, and this had official patronage. This is something that's part of the heart of the culture, unfortunately. This is a reflection of the depths of anti-Semitism now found in the Muslim world.

In many ways, the Muslim world today is comparable to Nazi Germany in the extent to which one finds anti-Semitic themes found pervasively throughout the culture.

So we must fight it, absolutely, as Ms. Eltantawi pointed out, but we must understand that it is not fringe. It's absolutely a central phenomenon.

VAN SUSTEREN: I guess we need to look at it in terms of what context... And, Sarah, maybe you can help me out. Dan, you first. Then you, Sarah.

Was it shown on Saudi television to say, "Look at this here, this fringe group," or was it shown on Saudi television saying, "This is a 3- year-old who is taught something that's not uncommon." I mean, we might put something on television and say, "Look how horrible that is."

ELTANTAWI: Right. I don't know exactly what it was doing on Saudi television, but I do know for a fact that this is the extreme fringe, and, unfortunately, it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that it isn't the extreme fringe unless you have a very narrow political agenda which consists of trying to paint all Arabs and Muslims as somehow propagating stuff against Jews.

VAN SUSTEREN: Let me-let me just-I mean, how it's presented-I mean, the way it's positioned on television, the fact that the Saudis put this on television, is disturbing.

ELTANTAWI: Very disturbing. Again, it is disturbing, but it doesn't make any sense from the point of view of our national security or for the long-term goal of trying to forge some sort of understanding between the Muslim world, which, again, the vast majority of which do not hold these views. It doesn't make sense to give these people the floor.

VAN SUSTEREN: Daniel-Daniel, is it the fringe? I mean is it-the vast majority of Muslims, your-what's your view of what they think of Jews?

PIPES: My view is that anti-Semitism of this sort is historically a Christian phenomenon, but, in the course of the past two generations, as a result of propaganda coming out of the Egyptian government, the Iranian government, the Iraqi government, the Saudi government of this sort, it has become pervasive.

Now what's so striking about this particular film clip is that it's a 3 ½-year-old. But you hear the same words coming out of the preachers in the mosques. You'll hear it from the politicians. You'll hear it in the schoolbooks, in the schoolrooms. You'll hear it pervasively. It is...

VAN SUSTEREN: Are there-Daniel, are there moderate Muslims? I mean, like-you know, I see this-I mean, you know-and, frankly, I don't come in contact with a lot of Muslims, so what-you know, I wonder is this like total an anomaly, or is this-I mean, are there moderate Muslims?

PIPES: There are definitely. The regrettable fact is, at this moment, it's an extreme one in Islamic history, where what is an extreme point of view, including this extreme anti-Semitism, has become ascendant. If one looks at someone like bin Laden, one sees that he is enormously popular.

So let's not-we can agree it's repugnant. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that it's something marginal and fringe. It is absolutely central.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. Let me give 20 seconds-let me give 20 seconds to Sarah, and then we're out.

ELTANTAWI: I really have to disagree with Mr. Pipes, unfortunately. First of all, this is definitely marginal, and, second of all, we can't exactly listen exactly to Mr. Pipes who has made a career of trying to...

PIPES: Now wait a minute. You agreed that I'm not going to be attacked. I'm not going to be attacked.

(CROSSTALK)

PIPES: I'm not going to be attacked. I'm not going to be attacked. I'm not going to be attacked.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. Well, with that, let me...

PIPES: This is not on agenda.

VAN SUSTEREN: Let me toss up the white flag.

ELTANTAWI: Somebody is getting defensive because for some...

VAN SUSTEREN: Both of you, thank you. We're out. Daniel, Sarah, thank you for a nice and fascinating discussion. We're out of this, though.