dear Penny, it was the welsh actually

Submitted by Tony (United Kingdom), Feb 3, 2008 at 11:16

Penny,

Why would you assume I would object to you calling Bobby Sands a domestic terrorist? or to people in Ireland having the vote?

I objected to the comparison between Bobby Sands and Palestinian Suicide Bombers. This is not just erroneous, it is ludicrous. It is sickening in so much as it flippantly minimises the the horror of suicide murder as an act, a cultural phenomenon and a tool of entrenchment designed to destroy the possibility of peace as much as it is designed to actually 'kill on the day'.

It also obscures the culpability of those who mismanaged a crisis in a declining conflict, reinvigorating a conflict through a flippant, inhuman and unneccesary brutality. The treatment of prisoners is a gauge of a civilisations humanity, and i do not believe in being soft on inmates but the treatment of political (or if it makes you more comfortable, republican terrorist prisoners) was inexcusable as human rights crime, war crime (from some perspectives) and perhaps most importantly as a tactic in the promotion of conflict resolution, peace and democracy. (how do you think those who object to guantanamo would react to the inmates being treated like the republican prisoners of the 70's and 80's?)

"The IRA didn't clear every building before detonating bombs" I concede this point but I suspect your perception some of issues pertaining to it is flawed. In any event I didnt declare contrary, I referred to Bobby Sands, and cited his methods as one of the reasons he was able to attain such iconic status for many nationalists. This shows a potential for compromise and resolution, to simply counter 'demonise' as the british government did, was essentially counter productive.

"The main reason their campaign was less bloody is that they didn't want to lose support. They had to keep a domestic mandate."

Exactly!!!! this is another reason why the comparison between the situation of Britain during the troubles and Israel is ridiculous, The Ira was always small and always in danger of losing support amongst the nationalist community, Palestinian terrorist are very numerous, very well equipped, and widely applauded when they murder parties of children.

Please do not pretend that the gerrymandered property based voting system of northern Ireland can be described as people 'having the vote'. And please also remember that the situation the palestininans are in bears no comparison to the situation they were in before they engaged in the tactics they have used for two decades now, they were one of the fastest growing economies in the world with better protected human rights than any other working class arab comunity in the arab world.

and the people who committed 9/11, the london bombers and the iraq militants are esentially the same as the palestinian suicide bombers, Hamas is a branch of the ikhwan al muslimun, islamic jihad openly espouses the liberation of al andalus after filistan, Zarqawi was jordanian (a predominantly palestinan country), and the same saudi whahabis(among others) fund and educate them all. You should actually raead and listen to what these various groups say, not there western television apologists, but there own 'domestic consumption' material and then assess the differnces

THERE CAN BE NO RATIONAL COMPARISON

Yes, the Ira killed more people than all other parties, and perhaps half of them were civilians (status is debated) yet this number is less than a third of annual road deaths in britain, and almost identical to thecivilians killed by the 'the other side' (for want of a better term). does this minimise the absolutely tragedy, no, but it helps illustrate that this was (in relative terms) a small conflict involving legitimate grievances that could clearly have been resolved earlier with a political will to do so, rather than a determination to 'win', that a government with 'no selfish interest' should not have had. THE DEATH TOLL SHOULD HAVE BEEN SMALLER BECAUSE IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN OVER. and that doesnt just happen because one side decides everyone is right, its been very very naughty.

you wrote "And selling guns for leaflets?!!!! This is nonsense. The IRA carefully guarded its military capability and had problems getting arms. If Gerry Adams was selling IRA guns, it means he was heavily involved in the IRA"

The guns were sold to welsh militants who never really became violently active, Gerry adams was just a teenager and not involved in any policy decisions of the ira at that time. they also accepted donations explicitly for weapons purchases and spent it on republican socialist propoganda instead. at this time the only 'Ira' violence was actually perpetrated by Unionist militants so the ira would be blamed, mainly because they feared the concesions the civil rights movement might get if it picked up steam without accompanying republican violence. all remarkably well documented if you care to research it (rather than call a stranger a liar because you assume to have guessed his political sympathies and dislike them). in later years Gerry adams was on the provisional army council, thats a given, not a revelation, are you not thankful he was? without him the political movement that led to the current peace may not yet have happened.

The Ira difficulties getting weapons is also another pertinent difference to the palestinians, in the eighties, the provisional army council was lucky if it had a budget 1% of the budget directly administered by Arafat, let alone the other militant groups.

At the start of the troubles the provisionals mainly killed other Ira men in order to get control of guns that the official leardeship would not release because it didnt want to be drawn back into armed conflict, this was among the first 'paramilitary/terrrorist' actions Adams was involved in, as I said, his estate was under attack and his whole family were involved in its defence, this is a near undisputed fact,

How we feel about the horrors of a conflict are not a basis for ending them, that lies in analysis of the nature of the conflict, the combatants and the mryiad motivations involved. this Israel/Britain ira/palestinian nonsense isnt helping, its the kind of rubbish that the london bombers will have been exposed to many times.

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