"Fool Me Once, Shame On You; Fool Me Twice, Shame On Me!"

Submitted by mariana (United States), Jun 4, 2007 at 16:24

Ye Gads! Ianus:
">ALL OF AMERICA'S "FRIENDS" ARE MORE DANGEROUS TO US THAN OUR ENEMIES... Russia is not a friend , so perhaps it might be given a chance ?"

I'm going to begin by saying: friend or non-friend, Russia has already been given another chance, and they've used each initiative of "friendship" against us and their own people; they've failed each and every test. This is the third or fourth time the gates of Russia were opened to the outside world and "democracy was adopted" by the Soviets. They've used each interregnum btw the end of "Communism" and the end of "Democracy" to seduce and lull the West into opening themselves up to easier subversive penetration, letting down their guard, disarming and pouring vast new resources into their tyrannical Russian pigsty; always spinning dreams of "cooperation and investment," only to have the fruits {they} obtained from the temporary and fictional "open-door policy" confiscated and re-nationalized under a new configuration of the same old oppressor.

">Rome actually lost her empire through internal barbarisation. And what you describe , dear Mariana , is nothing else than a growing barbarisation of America." Yes, unfortunately and sadly, we are both correct here; but, remember, Americans don't read history. It takes something overtly demonstrative to get their attention.

">If no radical reforms are undertaken the US will be incapacitated and probably implode and then the world will see chaos and anarchy which somehow the US at present is trying to prevent from spreading across the civilized world."

Can't argue with this either. Americans are beginning to understand this, and the debate about "illegal aliens/immigrants/migrants/infiltrators" is strongly based in realization that America is already being substantially changed [and not for the better] by the unmonitored, uncontrolled and apparently unlimited invasion this country is apparently experiencing. No matter how earnestly my President, Congress and the Media try to convince us of the merits of this abdication of responsibility they call "comprehensive immigration reform," the more a consistent 70-95% of AMERICANS are not buying it. When they take polls in LA, S. Florida or California or places where illegals constitute a substantial plurality, the polls reflect the position of the very "illegals" under discussion, furthering and reinforcing the delusions of our "leadership."

">The media are dependent on politicians and vested interests connected to the bribe-givers and their palns and so are the least likely organ to conduct any anti-corruption campaign..."

They're codependent. The problem is that they've insidiously changed the structure of American Government. Elected Representatives were distinctly designed to be "part-time" employees, who would leave their homes and businesses for short times for the betterment of their communities [thus, those elected from Kansas should reflect the needs and desire of Kansans]. They spent 5 months of the year in Washington and the other 7 at home, running their businesses or farms among their neighbors. After a few years of such sacrifice, they were happy to return to the communities TO LIVE UNDER THE LEGISLATION THEY AFFECTED, and become ordinary citizens again. Life-long careers in Washington have become sinecures, turning them into a farcical would-be Royalty, with no one is responsible for anything, and an anomalous someone, removed from office after a couple of 2-year terms, can "retire" with all they can steal atop $million pensions and life-long benefits. This in no way conforms with the visions of The Founders.

Instead of "Citizen Legislators," we've created a Ruling Elite who do not have a clue how the rest of us live. They don't have to drive or walk the streets, find airport parking, stand in ques, interact with bureaucracies and tax collectors, and "environmental" agencies which can enjoin you from use of your own property, etc. They've placed themselves virtually above the law, so long as they're discrete enough while stealing us blind and taxing us senseless [for the benefit of anybody and everybody but the poor hard-working slobs paying the taxes].

This "Immigration Legislation" is a critical thing to watch. The "Pols" are ALL convinced they can "sweet-talk" or browbeat their amnesiac supporters into forgetting their destructive votes on this issue. They have NOT thought this out; they've crafted another totally unenforceable law, with a "bait-and-switch" approach to securing the Border, while insisting these unmonitored, uneducated illegals benefit us greatly; In point of fact, there would be significant benefits derived from chartering planes and returning these people to the countries from whence they came. If jobs were truly closed down to "illegals," the borders secured, and laws already-on-the-books enforced with onerous penalties to employers who hire them, they'd go home on their own.

The "Debate" of Dem hopefuls last night, demonstrated that only the unknown candidate [Mike Gravel] with the least chance to even get the Dem nomination, was for making English the national language. Can you imagine? I cannot describe the rage Americans [even those of us who may not have had English as first language] feel when the first thing they hear on the telephone [even official Government lines] is: "For English, press 1." In America, what ...language SHOULD we expect, and why need we "press 1" to hear it? Our "pc" ruling elite have flunkies and flaks to dial for them, so are not subjected to the aggravation of being exorcised by these insults with every official or business telephone call they need make.

This time I think, THEY HAVE seriously MISCALCULATED; they have so insulated themselves from the constant insults and inconveniences that the rest of us daily face, that they have no clue why or to what extent we're enraged, and neither do they understand that we have that rage reinforced a dozen times each and every day.

">Yes, these are very serious reproaches . But perhaps the Russians also have some serious doubts and counter-charges ? The US didn't treat the Soviet Union fairly and rationally ."

This I get not at all. Russia's becoming part of the Civilized World should not require the American Teat for success; rather, they need to better manage the resources of their rich homeland, and mostly, reorder their priorities. Already, we're paying for and subsidizing their space program, paying their scientists who have not gone over to Iran, N.Korea, and anyone else with $$ opposing us. At the same time, they use their own fungible funds to strengthen and increase the grip of KGB and rearm Military, nationalize industry, shut-down independent media, and export assassins to the Civilized World [to intimidate dissenters], just like the old Stalinist USSR.

">The US didn't treat the Soviet Union fairly and rationally . First , the US allied itself with radical Islam to defeat the Soviet 40th army in Afghanistan."

And the USSR had the right to invade, destroy and occupy Afghanistan...because...? Invasion and occupation by the 40th Soviet Army was not a picnic by the lake for the tens of thousands they brutalized and or killed, or the hundreds of thousands of Afghans who were forced to flee their homes and country into exile. Why would you try to make this outrageous Soviets behaviour sound like a benign, legitimate undertaking? Putin in Prague has just explicitly threatened another Cold War and Arms War." He's not getting things all his way all the time, so he's going to throw bombs?

">The result was 9/11. Then they cheated Gorbachov - the only politician I've ever trusted...and supported all the centrifugal forces to break up the USSR to get rid of its competitor. Gorbachov was betrayed not only by Yeltzin but also by his Western "friends". Then the intrigues in the Caucaus to get hold of Baku and in Central Asia, military missions to Georgia ."

Hearing this from you saddens me more than I can express. THIS DID NOT CAUSE 9/11! Gorbachov's genius was in understanding that centrifugal forces and Soviet brutal mismanagement of resources, peoples, and the economy for 70 years, were inevitably {finally} catching up to them. His "opening" was designed to be like all the prior Soviet "openings," but Yeltsin [with a lot of help from Reagan, the Pope] and enough Freedom seekers among his own people, wrested the process from his hands, accelerating the timeline and redirecting his "initiatives" to "serious reforms."

">I have never heard a single condemnation from the US of the discriminatory treatment of Russian minorities in the post-Soviet states - Latvia with c. 50% non-Latvians gave them no right to vote and no citizenship . Estonia did the same with c. 30% of Russians living there... , Yet , the West blamed the Russians , not the new oppressors whom it protects ."

Again, the Soviets intrigued and occupied the Caucuses, murdered and subjugated their peoples, confiscated their lands, businesses and resources for the greater good of the "ethnic Russians" they infiltrated to repopulate, exterminate and rule over the indigenous populations. These Russians delegitimized the languages and cultures of these countries, forced collectivization, nationalized private industries and properties [as they did with their own Kulaks].

There's history here, Ianus. Just as you fervently opposed the deliberate occupation, division and polarization of Cyprus by Turkey; the USSR ate all of "Eastern Europe," treated native populations barbarously, flagrantly disregarding even a modicum of Human Rights with impunity. And what had these captive peoples done to deserve this? Simply, Russia wanted to "secure [read annex] it's Near Abroad." They accomplished and maintained this annexation with impunity, using the most brutal and violent means at their disposal, and they remained, largely unhindered for 50 years. Now these Commissars and their privileged families expect to keep their illegitimate status as "overseers," the properties they confiscated, while demanding to be loved, honoured, and afforded the very rights and "equitable treatment" they forcefully denied their victims in their own countries.

The realization that sixty years after the forced conquest of the Caucuses, the majority of these "squatters" refused to learn or use the local languages, insisted in living in and maintaining [de facto and de jure] ethnic Russian communities, were uninterested in becoming Estonian, Lithuanian or Latvian but rather deliberately remaining "Russians," says it all. Their hearts are with "Mother Russia;" it is to Mother Russia they whine and moan about their plight, and it is obviously in Mother Russia that they belong.

The "new oppressors" who are being "protected" by the West, are the indigenous peoples whose countries are under discussion. Russians unhappy with having to give up their ill-gotten status and some abusively ill-gotten gains, need use their 60 years experience to go home to "improve Russia" the same way they "improved the Caucuses."

As for Chechnya and Georgia. USSR replacing their government with Russian Viceroys or ethnic puppets has no legitimacy; and the deliberate subversion of the elected President Schevardnadze, is utterly indefensible. This man had previously represented USSR as Foreign Minister, is known to us all, and is no more gangster or terrorist than the rest of the Russian government.

I guess Ianus, in this, I'm basically Reaganite. I believe that those countries and peoples the USSR forcibly dominated and held behind the "Iron Curtain" for 50 years, have a right to self-determination without Russian interference. Russia has screwed-around with these peoples one way or another for many hundreds of years, and they'd been seriously restive for 15-20 years before the long overdue, inevitable "break-up."

That Russians themselves are [like frogs swimming in a pot of warm water over a high flame] calmly accepting re-conquest, confiscation and inevitable collectivization by the KGB. In time, this will redound to their everlasting shame; they've made their bed and it will be a long time before Americans will be interested to take another bite of this apple.

">...I do believe that esentially Russia and the US share the same civilization,..."
This comparison of yours, I reject utterly. Neither Russians nor Soviets were raised with the American Constitution or Bill of Rights; THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THEMSELVES ENTITLED to Liberty, Freedom, Right to own arms, Worship [or Not] unhindered in any manner they choose, and to elect their own [albeit, feckless] Representatives, according to one [approved] set of rules and laws. Russians and Soviets have never believed that they are "... Endowed by their Creator....to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness..." They went from a Theocratic Monarchy to Secular Monarchy masquerading behind a fictional "Supreme Soviet" and "Polit Bureau," and {they} in all cases expected Benefits and Blessings to come down from a privileged minority, above. Americans chose to come here to become "American,"
carving lives out of the wilderness [read J.F. Cooper's "The Last of the Mohicans"], with little or NO involvement from an earthly "authority" [until, alas, the recent perversion and over-reach of government], believing for the most part that they/we should be left alone to make our own way, "do our lives" and raise our children. It is American "Leadership's" disrespecting, disregarding, and ignoring these fundamental beliefs held by Americans [constituents who elected them], that have ignited the growing discomfort, "murmurings" and rage: the Immigration bill has simply become "the spark."

">... [US & Russia] face the same implacable enemy of their common civilization - Islam..."

While this is certainly true where terrorism for the revivification of the Caliphate by Militant Islam is concerned, it's obvious that Putin and his cohorts do not consider this sufficient cause to diminish their hostile, aggressive behaviour vis a vis his own people, his former [Near Abroad] prisoners or "the West." Putin continues advising, arming, providing technical assistance to, and exporting forbidden items in trade to Iran, encouraging AhmediNejad's Nuclear program, and shielding them from even the pitiful US, UN, EU sanctions and consequences of their persistent, flagrantly contumacious behaviours. The anti-missile system to Poland is a result of this threat Russia/Iran pose to the West. As for putting this anti-missile system in Turkey, you yourself have posited some of the best arguments I've seen against this.

Putin does not consider himself part of the West except insofar as he can derive credits, recognition and benefits from distracting and deceiving us. He explicitly rejects Freedom and Liberty for either his own people or those he coerces into Russia's orbit. Anyone who convinces himself otherwise, is ignoring past and present history and events, and deluding himself.

"> Islam has ALWAYS won its jihads through the hands of the infidels themselves. It is strong through the weakness and civil wars prevailing in the dar-al-harb." About this, time will tell and we shall see. mariana

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