reply to Pierre

Submitted by salina (Pakistan), Feb 28, 2009 at 01:45

Pierre wrote :-

Conflicting reports on (9:128-129):

Comment: According to the above the "two witnesses rule" to retain a verse is broken.

Comment: Why Would Ubayy Ibn Ka'ab dictate from his own Quran and claim at the end of sura 9 that two additional verses had to be written! If the prophet had recited them he would have put them in writing directly and it would have already been in his Quran. The above tradition doesn't make any sense.

Comment: The account differs slightly from the previous one.

Comment: From the above, in addition to Khuzaima, Umar also knew of 9:128-129.

Comment: Abu Bakr was the fist Khalifa after Muhammad. Uthman was to become the next one.

The above tradition relates that Ali Ibn Abu Talib, the prophet Muhammad's cousin believed something has been added to Quran.

Reference: All the above traditions were found in an enlightening article on http://www.quran.org/9128.htm, article published by A.M., and which provides a detailed bibliography.

Conclusion: If we are to grant any credit to the above traditions, 9:128-129 are doubtful because the rule of two witnesses bringing two written verses was broken. Except for Kuzaimah, and maybe Umar, no one else in the Islamic community seemed to know about verses 9:128-129. It is incredible that no one, at any point, had ever put them down in writing, including Umar! Why? There is no strong unity between the above traditions. They sometimes contradict each other and/or sometimes do not make sense. I believe there are entirely made up, we will see in section 1.2.3 and the general conclusion why.

Reply :- did u forget that there were thousand of Muslim who knew quran verse to verse and what about Usman (r.a.) made copies of the Qur'an from the original manuscript. These ppl would know if any verse were added and not a single authentic source claim that it was . Ali ( R.A.) , Usman ( R.A.) , Omar (R.A.) all Knew quran verbally also and verse 9 : 128- 129 was also know to them by Prophet ( Muhammad peace be upon him )

Second : Hadiths may be false . Nobody claim that hadiths are 100 % pure word of Holy Prophet peace be upon him . However quran can never be false . By following wrong hadith u claim quran is false ??? by following a man who committed rape and assaulted ppl and was a non lair u claim that there are 2 false verses added in quran ??

the fundamental point: Even if there IS a "19" pattern in the Quran, and under this "19" pattern "Rashad Khalifa" COULD be the name of a "messenger," how would this prove the "messenger" is "Rashad Khalifa" and NOT SOMEONE ELSE with a name WITH THE SAME NUMEROLOGICAL VALUES?

Doesn't the resort to numerology merely conceal the fact that Rashad Khalifa's claim of "messengership" MUST depend on EXTRA-QURANIC TESTIMONY, i.e. ahadith?

Logically, how can supporters of Rashad Khalifa criticize Abu-Hurayra, when they, themselves rely upon numerological ahadith and personal testimony to establish that Rashad Khalifa was allegedly "Messenger of the Covenant"?

The complete Qur'an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur'an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur'an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur'an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur'an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur'an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions

Muhammad: unlettered and uneducated

U wrote :- Crucial Question: If Muhammad was illiterate before this (Quran), what about after this (Quran)? Because of the wording of the original Arabic verse, it is clearly implied that Muhammad became literate after receiving the revelation.

Reply: - This is laughable of course Muhammad peace was educated by God through the teachings of Quran .

And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted."[Al-Qur'an 29:48]

Allah (swt) knew that many would doubt the authenticity of the Qur'an and would ascribe it to Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). Therefore Allah in His Divine Wisdom chose the last and final Messenger to be an 'Ummi', i.e. unlettered, so that the talkers of vanity would not then have the slightest justification to doubt the Prophet. The accusation of his enemies that he had copied the Qur'an from other sources and rehashed it all in a beautiful language might have carried some weight, but even this flimsy pretence has been deprived to the unbeliever and the cynic.

Now if suddenly holy Prophet peace be upon him learn to write then why didn't he wrote any documents in his life ???? he didn't wrote the letters which he send to various kings after conquering Makkah . Neither did he wrote the agreement which took place with Makkah ppl at Hudabia . So What is your claim ?? what is your proof that Muhammad peace be upon him knew to write ??? God clearly say that before quran Muhammad peace be upon him didn't have the knowledge which with quran he was able to give it to ppl around the world .No where does it say that he started writing ..

U wrote : From the first Quranic revelation (96:1) and context of 29:48, it is very clear that Muhammad was illiterate, still he was ordered to "read":

Reply :- this is even more laughable . When does read means write ????? Read simple me say what I am saying or did Angel Gabriel brought a written book from God and was pointing to the lines and was asking Muhammad peace be upon him to read from the book ???

The fact that Muhammad could neither read nor write (Q.29:48) is well known and uncontested by even his non-Muslim contemporaries and present day historians. He had no schooling or teacher of any kind. He had never been known to compose oral poetry or prose. The Qur'an, with its all-embracing laws and freedom from all inconsistencies, has its greatness acknowledged even by non-Muslim scholars [47]. Its contents treat social, economic, political and religious legislation, history, views of the universe, living things, thought, human transactions, war, peace, marriage, worship, business, and everything relating to life - with no contradicting principles. The Qur'an has never been edited or revised as it was never in need of any revision or correction. How were such vast subject areas expounded upon with such precision by a 7th century Arab with no formal education or even the ability to read what scant material there may have been in his environment on such topics? Where and when has history ever produced an illiterate and uneducated author of such a scripture?

( my reply or rest will be posted later . )

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