Tyler

Submitted by Abdul Rahman Reijerink (Australia), Jul 4, 2006 at 08:23

I feel inadequate to respond to such a large posting in the time I have available so here are some brief notes.

Like Benedict XVI ( a man I rarely agreed with when he was Cardinal Ratzinger) I find relativism to be dangerous, so yes I do believe in absolute truth, but the only truly absolute truth is God.

Where is your proof that integration is not the norm. I only have anecdotal evidence, but most of the muslims I know are relatively integrated, this even goes for the wahhabis in my city, sure they are not assimilated, but I do not believe assimilation is a positive good in and of itself. The exceptions are the more recent immigrants.

Tyler" What are your views on countries not yet under Islamic rule?"

Tell me what countries really use muslim law, I dispute that it can even be done in the sense of a modern legal system where there must be a definitve answer for every problem. I do not view as a positive good the twisting of an independant religious legal body of opinion makers into a formal legal system bound to and serving the state as we see in Saudi etc as a good thing. It is not, and it defies tradition.

Tyler "What is your views on Jews? Christians? Final judgement?"

What are yours? read the Qur'an it will tell you, see esp vs: 5:69 it should answer your question nicely. All that we need fundamenatly is to believe in God and do good deeds.

Tyler "Do you adhere to ALL of Mohammad's teachings? What about those on women who he claims are stupid and menstruate? Or that in court, the testimony of 1 man is worth that of 2 women?"

No I do not adhere to all of his REPORTED teachings (big difference), there are so many, with poorly understood contexts. Also, I am a human being and fallible, so I fall short of what I should. But to answer the sense that you mean more directly, i) did he really say these things, and ii) do they mean what you think they do? long arguments pertaining to this, but if interested try reading female scholars like Wadud and Barlas. Just because someone has told you a) these things are genuine reports (or translations of meaning in Qur'an) or b)that this is what they really mean, does not mean that your source is correct or informed or has the monopoly on how to view these things.

Tyler "I believe that calling someone 'chicken' does not further your argument against internment. In fact, it reflects poorly on your viewpoint."

True. However I do believe that the social costs (ie in terms of how it changes our society) of internment are too high. I also believe that it is a cowards way out, especially universal internment. ex: in WWII here in Australia, we interned all Italians and Germans including loyal Australians, we were shocked to see good old american boys with Italian and German names coming to fight the Japanese in the Pacific, it was a real eye opener for us.

Tyler "I'm sure if someone did a true cost-benefit analysis of internment-verses profiling, which incidentally, is what this thread is supposed to be about, they would find a HUGE savings both in monetary, manpower, and reduced risk of attack."

How do you weigh the social cost? surely you can see that in creating different catagories of citizen we would alter our society irrevocably. How far down the road of totalitarian control are you willing to go in pursuit of the illusion of safety? It would breed informers and all the distasteful apparatus and social relations that we rightly detest about societies like China and Nazi Germany/occupied Europe, where people spy on each other and bonds of trust can erode. Ultimately I believe that it a deadend route. Social engagement is a far better route. Why alienate (further according to you since we are supposedly self alienated to begin with) whole populations when you can use them to root out the enemy hiding in their midst?

Tyler "Any true muslim who subscribes to the Koran and ALL that it teaches and ALL the tenets of the Islamic faith, is a threat to all free democracies that are not under muslim rule."

Says who? where did you learn this ultimate interpretation of Islam that says I am therefore a non-believer or a threat to you? Islam is bigger than you or me, you do n ot have the right to define it this way from your extremely limited knowledge. I find it interesting that you use your position as a canadian to nullify others right to speak on Canadian points of view ( a valid angle to some extent so don't get me wrong), but then you set yourself up as the supreme arbiter of a faith that you clearly do not believe in or practise. I further refute the idea that Islam preaches a religious state where the "priestly class" rule.

Tyler "If you won't become 'born again' then your children certainly present this risk."

I doubt it, those that do pose a risk are generally socially alienated second generation immigrants grasping at an identity that barely understand. I am an Aussie, my kids are Aussies the worst that can happen is that they will become junkies just like so many other kids in Sydney.

Tyler "By the way, It's not 'my liberties' that are for sale here but rather the liberties of a small minority"

I find it hard to believe that you can write that with a straight face. Do you just not get how liberties work, if everyone does not have them, then they are privileges not liberties, and therefore can be taken away at will. paraphrase of famous quote: First they came for the Jews, then the union leaders, then the priests, I was quite because I was scared, then they came for me, but noone came to help.

Tyler "by virtue of what is written in the Koran" [therefore life is threatened]

wrong

Tyler "and preached by Imams"

now that is closer to the truth. but if you had any idea what went on in Muslim circles you would realise that these people are despised and hated. In Australia we are having our first genuine terrorism trials in this context, the imam involved is an irrelevant breakaway from a breakaway sect (and shunned by them for his views). yes they are here, yes they made plans and tried to act on them, but we are talking about a handful of people. really. just a handful.

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