JustMe let me try to answer your questions.

Submitted by Hind Samy (Egypt), Mar 24, 2006 at 06:40

First of all let me say again, I did not wish to offend anyone by quoting from the Bible - all I wanted was to show that if anyone wants to find violence they will in the Koran, the Bible and the Torah. Again, I love Jesus (pbuh) and respect Christianity and all people's right to believe in whatever they like.

Let me try to answer your questions JustMe.

1) First thing, are you saying you believe the Bible is true or not?

The Holy Bible is true - it came from God - but I do believe that it has been edited and translated to the point it has lost a lot along the way. As you may well know the Bible was edited many many times and finally during the time of Constantine. As everyone knows when a literary work is translated, it loses a lot - that is why the Koran (who is written in Arabic), when it is translated in any other language is just " the meaning of the Koran" and never called the Koran - because by being translated, it just becomes a book of the meaning of the Koran, not the Koran itself because of the dangers of translation.

2) Are you denying that the original Hebrew and Greek text exists?
(obviously there have been many translations, otherwise I'd be unable to read the Bible)

To my knowledge there isn't a text in survival this day that was written near to Jesus's time (pbuh). I saw an interesting documentary done by channel 4 (by a devout Christian) " Who wrote the Bible". Apparently even the New Testament was written by Jesus's (pbuh) followers decades after Jesus's life (pbuh). (I had always thought the New Testament was written by Jesus disciples).

3) Do you deny that Jesus died for our sins?
As a Muslim I will have to respectfully disagree because we don't believe in the Original Sin and we don't believe anyone is accountable for the sins of another. So this is a point on which we disagree. I don't mean to offend anyone.

4) Can you show me where Jesus killed anyone or even came close?
(there is one instance where he found people defiling a temple and he flipped some tables
over and hit them with a stick)

I never said Jesus (pbuh) killed? But even in this instance we see a different side of Jesus (pbuh):

Matthew 10:34-36 (New International Version)
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[a]

I'm no saying Jesus (pbuh) was bad or a killer - I'm just saying that sometimes, even in the Bible - it's not just about love - there are times when more severe measures are spoken of. I totally believe Jesus's (pbuh) main message to mankind was love and peace and I highly respect that.

5) I agree that there is all kinds of violence in the Bible. God did not tolerate many things, as
you pointed out. I'm not even going to go where you went and judge God's actions he took
against the evil he saw, and there was some seriously sick stuff going on that probably
made God ill. In these stories you mention the wrath of God, but you failed to point out
why there were consequences, for example, people building huge idols and boiling their
babies to bring abundant crops; men sleeping with men; women sleeping with women are a
few examples. Not even the Jews were safe. They thought Jesus was coming to straighten
out everyone else but them. But they were incorrect, he had plenty to tell them too, which
is ultimately why they killed him.

I am not judging God's actions, I am merely pointing out there there is violence in the Bible - so many people keep talking about violence in the Koran - I just wanted to point out that there is just as much if not more violence in the Koran. Read my ealier post "there is fire and brimstone in most religions".

6) Your referral to the Song of Songs 4:1-16 as pornographic reveals your ignorance. This was
written by King Solomon. He's telling of his love for his bride, affirming the sanctity
of marriage and also picturing God's love for his people. If you're referring to the part
that says "my sister, my bride", the Hebrew translation of sister is 'achowth (other, sister,
together). If you want to believe it was incestuous instead of the other two possibilities, go
right ahead. But then who has the filthy mind now, Hind Samy? Or are you saying that the
entire song is just pornographic because he goes into such detail of the beauty of her
body? The guy is in love with her.

Song of Solomon 4-5 (New International Version)

Song of Solomon 4
Lover

5 Your two breasts are like two fawns,
like twin fawns of a gazelle
that browse among the lilies.
1 Solomon's Song of Songs.

Beloved [a]
2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth—
for your love is more delightful than wine.

3 Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes;
your name is like perfume poured out.
No wonder the maidens love you!

4 Take me away with you—let us hurry!
Let the king bring me into his chambers.

Beloved
16 How handsome you are, my lover!
Oh, how charming!
And our bed is verdant.


I'm sorry but singing of a woman's body sounds like sins of the flesh to me (I didn't say it was incestuous). I was a bit taken aback when I read this in what is supposed to be the book of God - also please explain how my mind is dirty when I read this and I'm shocked:

Ezekiel 23
Two Adulterous Sisters
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother. 3 They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed. 4 The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.

5 "Oholah engaged in prostitution while she was still mine; and she lusted after her lovers, the Assyrians-warriors 6 clothed in blue, governors and commanders, all of them handsome young men, and mounted horsemen. 7 She gave herself as a prostitute to all the elite of the Assyrians and defiled herself with all the idols of everyone she lusted after. 8 She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, when during her youth men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust upon her.

14 "But she carried her prostitution still further. She saw men portrayed on a wall, figures of Chaldeans [a] portrayed in red, 15 with belts around their waists and flowing turbans on their heads; all of them looked like Babylonian chariot officers, natives of Chaldea. [b] 16 As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea. 17 Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust. 18 When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. 19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Sorry, but personally for me I was a bit taken aback when I read this, and I find it very hard to believe the pure nature of God could have sent words like this people? Genitals of donkeys and emissions like that of horses? I can't imagine God said things like this or would be pleased that things like this are in His Book! Are children at Sunday school exposed to this?

7) Yes, Joshua told the people that God was a jealous God. He was trying to tell them to stop
worshipping idols because God told them to have no other gods.

Point seven is an explanation and not a question - thank you for the explanation.

8) So when you find a disturbing scripture that describes rape or something appalling
you are assuming it was the work of God? Wrong. There was a lot of bad things going
on in those days. That's why Jesus was sent. Yes, God did slay sinners for various
reasons-- some reasons we may not understand, but only God can see into their hearts,
and I guess you're going to presume to know more than the Lord.

I am not assuming anything is the work of God - in fact I believe many things were changed in the Bible and it is for this precise point I don't believe many of it is the work of God. Example: the rape mentioned in some of the verses - when this man offers his daughter and comcubine to the men to "do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing" then he kills her and rips her to shreds, does this sound to you what God would expect of His people? It sounds very warped to me.

9) I can see you don't accept that Jesus was sent to die for our sins by your comment,
so you would have no ability to understand nor the ability to accept the sacrifice of Jesus
or how things changed from that moment on. That's a shame. And that is the key reason
why your people feel compelled to continue killing for your Allah. There is no forgiveness
according to Islam because Muslims don't accept His beautiful sacrifice. Sinners from that
time on were covered by His sacrifice. People can accept Jesus as their savior or not.
You don't have anything like that in your religion, although God would never turn anyone
away who accepted this truth.

All the prophets sacrificed a lot in their service of God - this is what I believe, but again, as a Muslim we don't believe in Original Sin. I don't understand how you leapt to the conclusion that because we don't believe in Original Sin that Muslims "feel compelled to continue killing for your Allah" ? You say that "Sinners from that time on were covered by His sacrifice" does that mean everyone before this is damned? Don't you believe Jews are people of the Book too? Are they damned because they were never baptised or don't hold your same beliefs?

As for your comment "people can accept Jesus (pbuh) as their saviour or not" you might like to know that Muslims believe Jesus (pbuh) will return to save all believers (stress on ALL believers), from the anti-Christ.

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

for a better idea of how Muslims view Jesus (pbuh).

I hope I haven't offended anyone, I never intended to, I respect all people's beliefs even if I don't agree with some things. Belief is a very strong and personal thing never to be taken lightly in my opinion. I have many close Christian friends whom I respect though we might disagree in certain aspects. In the end we are all People of the Book and in my opinion brothers and sisters and we have to agree to disagree on some things sometimes.

Peace be with you.

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