to william

Submitted by tariq (United Arab Emirates), Apr 15, 2006 at 07:10

"I am simply amazed at how seemingly intelligent people... like Harrak and Tariq can continually defend Islam"
We are not just defending islam, we are also removing your misconceptions and increasing your knowledge.

"the seventh century Arab warlord Mohammad when the truth about him and his treacherous, evil, and greedy life is made completely clear with an open-minded reading of the Koran."
Warlord???? learn Islamic history plz.

"Reading this stuff truly makes me despair that there is some deep and sinister flaw in the human mind that causes blinding closed-mindedness. I fear this flaw will eventually destroy civilization and all of us with it."
read the quran, understand it and u will become a muslim

"In a prior post, Harrak actually said something like Mohammad gave captive women a choice between "sex or blood" and that's not so bad, right? At least he didn't kill them outright, so that's not so bad, right? No, he showed mercy upon them by repeatedly raping them so he could breed more little Muslim warriors until he had used them up. "
harrak has given u the answer. u have replied back but it seems that u didnt read the most important part of his comment. Read it again.

"These women give Mohammed young little Muslim warriors. Not to mention some good sex!"
Wots wrong in having sex with your wives?

"And then there is Tariq, whose posts are an infinite source of wonder."
Try giving replies to my arguments

"How anyone could be so gullible and naive is just beyond me. He says, "banu quraiza men were killed because they broke their treaty and helped the Quraish in their war against muslims". "
if u need clarification about my comments, TALK TO ME instead of talking ABOUT me.
Banu Q. broke the treaty, killed many muslims, made them suffer in hunger and thirst under the attack of an army 20 times stronger and caused them a lot of material, physical and psychological damage. When caught, banu q. accepted the verdict of their fellow jew from the book followed by jews and christians. Why do u have a problem?

"There have been thousands and thousands of executions like this throughout history and the excuses given are always the same – oh, those guys, "they deserved to die", "it was their own fault", "they were evil", "every last one of them lined up and actually chose to die, honest to God!""
Not excuses, only explanations. if some1 kills(god forbid) the member of your family most close to u, then u wont be making any excuses in court for that man to be freed. u would want him dead.

"We have all come to expect such excuses the crimes from evil men the world over."
is it an evil crime to punish criminals?

"But Muslims shamelessly claim these crimes were really all sanctioned by an ethical, moral God."
Not crimes, punishments.

"Contrast that with Jesus, it's just amazing. I'm not even a Christian and I see a huge difference."
plz tell christians here y not to be a christian.

"Christ died for spreading a message of peace and love."
he didnt die

"Mohammad killed"
he only killed criminals

"to spread a message of conquest and obedience to Mohammad and the Arabs."
peace justice and equality. he united the most volatile region on earth.

"Gentlemen,

Please reflect deeply upon what I write below."
yur writing was very predictable. many christains say the same thing to us. u try to teach u islam and instead show how ignorant u are.

"I write not to be combative or insulting"
then LEARN islam

" But I believe your minds are overrun with disease. You are brainwashed."
That's right. u are the only here one whos smart and can think. lisa said the same thing about me being brain washed. ask her wot i said in reply. goes for u too

"You believe religious fantasies because where you come from, a man can be beaten,"
like i said, ur comments are very predictable. u just ASSUME everything. where we live, wot we do even wot we THINK AND BELIEVE!!! do u have sixth sense or wot? may be u are one of those mutants in x men? how do u know things without asking? can u read our minds?
None of them. u were wrong.

"punished, and even killed for daring to think as an independent, free man"
wrong again

"And then there are the benefits of Islam-brainwashing."
not brain washing. following the TRUTH

"You get to form your own Allah-sanctioned mini-harem with a good little woman "
no

" or two or three or four whom you can order around (or beat) and have sex with whenever you want to breed more good Muslim warriors. Sounds perfectly harmonious and moral, doesn't it?"
islam is the only religion in the world in which women are equal to men.(wrong again)

"But at one time, maybe when you were a boy or a young man, you asked yourself, "Is Islam really true?"
thats right. for the first time u are right. till now u have made 63 guesses in all your comments about either me alone, or with some other muslim(s)
u have been wrong in all of them except the one above. The probability that you'll write something correct about me by just luck is 1.587%. So stop guessing and ask questions.

"Instantly, you were paralyzed with fear."
wrong

"You were afraid that if you did not believe, you would be punished: beaten, ostracized, banished,"
wrong again
"even killed if events spun out of control.
and again.

"You were overwhelmed thinking your entire society and history are based on a mountain of barbarous lies.
wrong.
"Your people – your ancestors, your mamma, your babba, your babba's other wives, that little girl your neighbor gave your babba to marry as soon as she grows breasts – you have all been defrauded and defiled."
wrong

"You see the West in all its greatness and think, "They do not need us. My people and I are superfluous, trivially unimportant, like a doorknob on a bathroom door in a great Christian cathedral built by Westerners."
stop guessing. almost all ur guesses are wrong.

"We Muslims may as well not even exist."
wrong

"The thought is unbearable."
which thought?

"You do not use the power of your mind to question your mommy and daddy's cult of lies. You simply conform."'
wrong. wrong

"If I were in your shoes, I would probably believe as you do."
u will believe once u learn islam, the quran and islamic history

"Unbelievers like this awful William are supposed to be inferior."
wrong

" It says so all through the Koran: "(As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.""
inefective is different from inferior.

"that's obviously not what really happened, is it?"
which verse is this from which chapter? give me the verse number, i will read it in context and explain it to u

"I empathize with the pain you and your people must feel."
the only pain i feel is wen i read in the newspaper or watch on tv, muslims being killed for no reason by ur 'friends'

" Believe me, though I may insult you and play with you, it is only to shake your beliefs to the foundation so that maybe you will stand up and think for yourselves like real men"
i have thought a lot. and u are late. my belief"s foundation have been shaken by christians and others. but my faith has only become stronger.
My special thanks to:
MW
Dianamoon12
Mr. X
Ianus
Vinodgupt
Lisa
Boris
Joe
Richard lion heart
Dimmi No More
Italian
Sidda
William
and any1 else i may have forgotten

Thank u all for forcing me to learn more about my religion and making me a better muslim.

"Contrary to what you probably assume, given your medieval, primitive mindset, I am not a Christian."
u are agnostic? dont u think that god would guide mankind in some way?

"I suspect you have absolutely no idea what that really means."
u know u are wrong. out of 63 assumptions u got only 1 right

"I will describe my own experience with freedom of religion. It is one of millions and millions repeated throughout the western world."
And many more are joining u.

"I was raised as a Catholic Christian in the United States. My parents forced me through a Catholic education until age fifteen. When I was very young, I believed in God as Christianity portrays it. By the age of ten, I realized it was all just nonsense."
and wot made u realise that? y dont u believe that the bible is gods word written by men?

"Jesus was a man who a mob elevated to divine status in a classic example of mass religious hysteria. Jesus was just a man, a charismatic religious leader crucified, tortured to death by the Romans."
he was a prophet who healed sick ppl and brought back to life the dead by permission from god.

"A few days before I was confirmed a Catholic, I told my priest, face-to-face, that I do not believe in Christianity."
why?

"Can you imagine what bodily harm, what ostracism and alienation you would encounter if you were to act as I did?"
yes. i would recieve no harm

"You, gentlemen, are not free."
wrong again

"Though I know that all religions are just cults like stupid, backward, primitive Islam"
u believe in god, but u believe that he has kept no way of guiding us?

" I have tremendous respect for the core message of Christians, Jews, and Buddhists. (I have only studied these religions in reasonable detail.)"
but u forgot to study islam.

"Christ was no warrior, murderer, rapist like Mohammad."
Correction: Like Muhammad(pbuh), Christ(puh) was no warrior, murderer, rapist

"It is hard to imagine a more beautiful message than that. If you really need to cling to a religious delusion, why not at least choose a moral and beautiful message like Christ's?"
that message has been corrupted. we believe in the uncorrupted, more effective and more PEACEFUL message.

"Christ was killed for his message of peace and love."
he was not killed

"Mohammad killed others to spread his message of conquest and subjugation. The contrast between this man of peace and this man death couldn't be more stark."
Couldn't be more stark? What do you know about the Qurans teachings?

"The Buddhist message is just as peaceful and beatific as Christ's. Desire is pain. Attachment to the material world causes desire. Therefore, in order to achieve bliss, detach yourself from the material world. Though I think the Buddhist message is too passive and impractical, it's not hard to see how it encourages peace and goodness in people. I have had the pleasure of working many years with several Buddhist software engineers from Thailand and Vietnam. They are beautiful people and I love them like brothers. Their Buddhist faith has much to do with why they are such good people to work with."
blah blah blah blah blah blah. not important wot u think about Buddhism

"The Jews have a somewhat more problematic message, in my opinion, since it revolves around Jewishness and adherence to incredibly outmoded and arbitrary laws. But there is no arguing that Jewish culture and the Jewish worldview have had a profoundly positive impact on mankind. Jews argue about their religion, justice, laws, etc. all the time."
read the talmud and the old testament. you'll have many NICE words to say

"They do not take things on blind faith like Muslim Neanderthal warrior slaves."
u mean they dont follow their religion?

"When they doubt the existence of God or the goodness of man or the justice of a law, etc., they discuss and argue like lions. Many of them decide to be secular for this very reason. They question, question, question and challenge, challenge, challenge"
who is they? oh forget it. i dont want to know. u are not making much sense because of ur ignorance about islam

"You think it is a worldwide Zionist conspiracy that makes Jews as incredibly successful as they are in science, culture, business?"
wrong

"No way."
right

"It is their culture of open-minded study and debate"
theres more

"And their culture is firmly rooted in their religion."
they follow their religion?

"You may think that because Mohammad was a bloody, greedy warlord, you cannot believe in God"
Wrong again. Not because, IF

"But I believe in no religion of man, but I have always known God exists. Just look around. What is the world, if not God? What is consciousness, our own self-awareness, if not incontrovertible evidence of God?"
ask an atheist

"But my understanding of God was not demanded and beaten out of me by some cult of man, where God is nothing more than a proxy for a greedy imam or politician."
u have this in common with 1.2 bilion muslims

"I am studying for a PhD in astrophysics at one of the best universities in America."
really? by your comments u sound like u have yet to turn 18.

"Quantum mechanics, the Jew Einstein's theory of relativity, string theory, galaxies, etc., etc., etc."
interesting stuff

"The universe is beautiful and strange beyond anything your feeble minds can imagine."
but u can?

"God exists."
i know.

"I see Him everyday in the equations of quantum physics and the telescopic images of distant galaxies."
u have only seen his creations. i READ his message

"But do I believe that God "speaks" to a warlord like Mohammed, as one person speaks to another?"
warlord? i dont know any warlord by the name of mohammad.the only ppl i know with the name muhammad(apart from my friends) are mahatir muhammad, shaikh mohammed bin rashid al maktoum and Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). all of them are peace loving ppl and great leaders.
all of them have united there ppl, and helped them develop their country.

" Do I believe God "knows" or "thinks" or "sees" like a person? Do I think God "wants" me to do anything at all?"
not as a person

"Your primitive, feeble conception of God is nothing more than a means that imams and kings and men saying peace and justice while carrying clubs and guns can control you as slaves."
wrong again

"All through the Koran (and other religious books), God wants and talks and acts just like a very powerful and demanding human being. "
so you are saying that u have never read the Quran?

"The God of the Koran says nothing of his most beautiful and mind-boggling creations,"
the Quran talks on almost all subjects

"like the galaxies, the laws of gravitation,"
we have yet to find them.

"relativity,"
http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm#relativity

"chemistry"
atoms are part of chemistry.

" the beauty of life,"
the quran is filled with such stuff

"atoms and molecules, etc"
The Unbelievers say, ‘Never to us will come
The Hour': say, ‘Nay! but most surely,
by my Lord, it will come upon you –
by Him Who knows the unseen –
from Whom is not hidden the least little atom
in the Heavens or on earth: nor is there anything less
than that, or greater, but is in the Record Perspicuous.'"
(Al-Qur'an 34:3])
how can a book written 1400 years ago, say that everything smaller than an atom or larger is in The Book?
remember, there was no concept of anything being smaller than an atom. just like the Greeks, the arabs thought that matter is made up of small indivisible particles. arabs call that particle zarrah or atom.

"Mohammed's fraudulent God speaks coarsely, even vulgarly, just like a seventh century warlord, of wars and vengeance and killing."
read the quran.

"Suppose that God really did "speak" to humans, like one human speaks to another."
Thru angels. dont u know ANYTHING about islam?

"Think of all he could say!"
dont think. READ!

"Think of all the wonders of science, of the beautiful and magnificent world around us"
like i said, dont think, READ the Quran.

"None of this is in the Koran."
ALL of this is in the Koran"

"Everything we know about this wonderful universe had to await discovery by unbelievers centuries after Mohammad terrorized and killed -- although"
who are u talking about?

""He shall render their works ineffective"."
which verse?

"The God of the Koran talks of death, obedience, war, and subjugation."
but u never read the quran.

"These topics sound suspiciously like those that would preoccupy a seventh century Arab warlord obsessed with acquiring power, fortune, and women captives, don't you think?"
who is this arab warlord? Muhammad(pbuh) was a kind and forgiving person who was forced to fight just because he was a muslim(and therefore believed that all humans are equal) . For more than a decade he hand his followers were tormented in ways unimaginable. Lisa thinks she has studied islam. ask her wot she know about the first 10 years of prophethood.

"Why does the God of the Koran not mention anything about the earth"
"And the earth, moreover,hath He made egg shaped." (Qur'an 79:30)
the arabic used here is dahaahaa meaning a wide expanse or an egg shaped object(more specifically an ostrich egg)
Perfect analogy isn it?

"the other planets,"
maybe it mentions about the other planets. im not a haafiz

"the solar system,"
"Blessed is He Who made Constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light."(Qur'an 25:61)
Read the Quran. there is NOT A SINGLE VERSE IN THE WHOLE QURAN where the moon is described as a siraaj, wahaaj, or diya. these are reserved for the sun.
siraaj=torch
wahaaj=blazing lamp
diya=shining glory.

moon is described as muneer(giving noor). Noor in classical arabic means borrowed light or someone or something else's light.(eg the Quran is often called siraajum-muneera. siraaj as well muneer. the quran has its own light(of guidance and the unmatchable poetry) but it is gods word so it is also muneer.
When did your science tell you that the moon does not give off its own light?

"other galaxies and stars?"
it mentions them. but i dont know much about it. so i will tell u something else:
"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one
unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?" (Qu'ran 21:30)
Big Bang

"With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: For it is We Who create the vastness of Space." (Qur'an 51:47)
all the interpretations that i have given are by Abdullah Yousaf Ali. the word used here is musioon meaning vastness of space as well as the expanding universe.
M Asad translated musioon ans expanding universe. Arberry, whose translation i believe Dr. Pipes himslelf consults translates the whole verse as:
"And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide."
so god is extending(expanding) the vast universe. wen did your science tell u this? My quran told this 1400 years ago

"Primitive passing references are made."
repeat that again in your next comment

"They match the understanding of a warmongering rapist warlord who's trying to control his people by making up a religion"
repeat that too

"Why nothing about atoms and molecules,"
"He Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between." (Qur'an 25:59)
So Mr Astro... wot do u know about 'the fourth state' of matter and the interstellar galactic material?
remember, when the quran was revealed, even telescope was not invented.

"about the molecular and cellular structure of life?"
like i said, im not a hafiz, so i dont know everything. but you might find something interesting:
Proclaim! (or Read!) In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created – Created man, out of Alaq."(Qur'an 96:1-2)
Alaq is a word used in classical arabic meaning
-a clot of blood
-a leech like substance
-something which clings
in modern arabic the only meaning which is similar is something which sticks. but the word used is no longer alaq. its alliq.
but alliq is used now. 1400 year ago it was alaq.
Wen Prof. keith moore was presented this verse he didnt know wot to think of it. he didnt know whether an embryo looks like a leech or a blood clot. so he used the most modern telescopes available(in the '80s) and found out the an embryo DOES look like a blood clot in early stages. He went to the zoology department of his uni and obtained a picture of a leech. and saw that from one side a human embryo looks just like a leech.
theres A LOT more it. if u want to know more, just ask lisa.
Also dont tell me hes not credible. Keith Moore was at that time professor of embryology and chairman of the department of anatomy at the university of toronto in Canada.
His book titled The Developing Human had many editions. but the one with the information given from this verse and other verses, won him the award for the best book written in that year.(not just because of the description of an embryo's appearance, but also because the Quran describes an embryos development perfectly and in stages which are much easier to understand)
the translation for these verses were given to Dr. Moore IN DETAIL by muslim scholars under the direction of a Yemeni scholar Sheikh Abdul Majid Azzindani.

"The very first page of a university physics, math, chemistry, or biology book is infinitely more informative than all the useless and corrupt pages of the Koran."
actually this book on embryology written by Dr. Moore, which won an award, is used by medical schools worldwide and has been translated into 8 different languages, was taught by the Quran about alaq, mudhgah and the covering of bones etc in stages MUCH EASIER to remember and understand than those by modern science. Based on these stages, Dr. Moore created some 13 stages in his award winning book.


"Take for example, the content of the chapter called "Mohammad". In how many ways can Mohammed mutter that those who follow God will be rewarded and those who don't believe will be punished? Can't God at least say something interesting or of substance? As far as writers go, your Mohammad is boring, uninformative, repetitive, comically ambiguous, and just primitive. And he seems preoccupied with killing!"

I read this chapter(no 47) and couldn't find a single verse which would prove that i was wrong when i said that Islam is a religion of peace. but here's verse nine(yousaf ali translation ofcourse):

"That is because they hate the Revelation of Allah; so He has made their deeds fruitless."
is this the verse u were refering to in ur comment? it means that if you hate the Quran, whatever u do in your life would be useless to you in the hereafter.

"If Mohammed decided he wanted to fool everyone around him into believing that God had spoken to him and that they should all do what Mohammed wants them to do, what would Mohammad say God told him? Mohammed, having fabricated everything, would make God sound just like a human being who "punishes" and "sees" and "loves" and seeks _vengeance_ just like a human being. Mohammed would tell everyone, "This is God's will!" And then, "Oh, and by the way, God said He only talks to me! And no one else! And you can all have four wives! (Of course, God does not say anything to women. They're just for breeding.) But I can have as many wives as we can capture! Now go die for me in battle! But don't worry -- if you are killed, I promise I will have sex with your wives every night!" Well how convenient for the warlord rapist Mohammed! God spoke to Mohammed, no else could hear, and God won't speak to anyone else! Now bow down and beg and grovel before Mohammed, or rather God, you slaves!"
u have a lot to learn.

"Fourteen hundred years later, you are still slaves,"
better be a slave of Allah on the right path than an agnostic slave of iblis.

"begging"
to Allah

"groveling"
Dictionary.com has these meanings"
1)To behave in a servile or demeaning manner; cringe.
2)To lie or creep in a prostrate position, as in subservience or humility.
3)To give oneself over to base pleasures: "Have we not groveled here long enough, eating and drinking like mere brutes?" (Walt Whitman).
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=groveling)
you were referring to the second one?

" before the man Mohammed five times a day."
before Allah

"Mindless."
wrong. its healthy(now) and rewarding in the hereafter.

"Muslims stupidly follow a seventh century warlord rapist's lies because they crave EASY answers."
wrong. we follow Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) cuz he is a prophet and to him was revealed God's word.

"They want things simple"
Wrong. the Quran is not simple. Not every1 can translate it. and those who can, cant interpret the WHOLE meaning. this is why Sheikh Abdul Majid did not translate the verses alone. He had other experts with him.

"there is one book with all the answers"
the Quran has all the answers.

"Follow these seventh century incantations and no one will beat you, you can marry those four Muslims, and you'll even go to heaven in the end."
marry more than one woman only if you can take care of them all, and treat them equally. Many times after wars, there is a shortage of men. so there are two options:
1) One man can marry more than one woman.
2) ‘Extra' women can become prostitutes like those in europe after WWII. In return for bread they will spread AIDS and Syphilis.

"What gullible fools Muslims are!"
"Please reflect deeply upon what I write below. I write not to be combative or insulting."
you dont believe in any religion, so u can lie all you want, be as hostile as you can be. after all, you are free.

"If anything, science has taught us that there _are_ answers to all questions, but that the answers are very, very difficult to discover, and none of us will live long enough or be smart enough to know all the answers in our lifetimes. Too bad!"
thats right. very difficult to discover. yet the Quran has many of them even though it was written 1400 years ago. These Scientific facts are Signs that god has given us:
'"Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth..."(Quran 41:53)

Prof. Tagatat Tejasen, Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University in Thailand happened to read the following verse:
"Those who reject our signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire; as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the Penalty..."
(Quran 4:56)
At first he didnt believe this. A book written 1400 years ago cannot possibly describe the need of pain receptors in our skin to feel pain. He verified this verse and in a medical conference in Riyadh he proudly proclaimed:
"Laa Ila ha Ilallah muahammadu-ur- Rasool Allah."
[There is no god but Allah, Muhammad (pbuh) is his messenger.]

learn something from him.

"... I do not say this to insult you."
right.

"In fact, if you were somehow to find your way out of the cult in which you find yourself,"
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cult

1a)A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
1b)The followers of such a religion or sect

Most of the muslims are from mainstream islam. Very few are 'extremist or false'. eg Elijah and his followers. im not from them.

2)A system or community of religious worship and ritual
if u meant this meaning this meaning, then all religions are cults. and if u believe there is a god, then u are in a cult as well

3)The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
same here

4)A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
in other words miracles. Jesus(pbuh) performed them, so did Muhammad(pbuh)

5a)Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
5b)The object of such devotion.
God is not a person, principle or just a thing. He is more than we can imagine.

6) An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
EXCLUSIVE? 1.2 billion muslims...

"I would respect you more than you can imagine."
but u respect the religion which allows racism, and thinks that women are inferior to men(genesis says that Eve was made from adams rib cuz he could not find a suitable helper from ANIMALS)

" I was born free and never had to be very courageous to be free."
free to lie, free to steal, free to cheat, free to support the racist religion(christianity) and free to support the 2nd holocaust.

"I never had to fear for my life or property or place in the world if I questioned my parents' religion, politics, or anything else."
same here. and if i find a muslim who doesnt know that islam is the religion of peace, I'll tell that person to read my reply to sidda(http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/40932)

"You, on the other hand, were born slaves, like African slaves of centuries past."
Better be slaves of Allah than of Iblis.

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".