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Really, it's not whether you stand by him or not, but your why's

Reader comment on item: John Hagee, the Holocaust, and Me: Thinking about Allies

Submitted by Rand (United States), Jun 7, 2008 at 15:59

Dan Pipes' why's seem decent to me (not that I'm an overall fan of his positions in a general sense). I think if asked about a situation like this, the worse thing you can do is ignore it, because that says the statements are not significantly wrong enough to warrant a response.

I'm alright with McCain's reaction, even if it is a little posturing-y, because it does send a clear signal that you shouldn't say things like that. But I'm okay with Dan Pipes decision because while it side-steps the debate, it admits the statements are wrong, if not as loudly, and it confronts a fundamental reality of politics.

Politics is an ugly, ugly game, and I think it's naive and counterproductive to repudiate all the allies who you feel have repugnant views. I mean Obama hasn't repudiated the various semi-Commie groups endorsing him (especially if you look at the student groups campaigning for him). It's very rare for a single ideology to have enough overwhelming support among the population to allow for a pure coalition, so you must band with those you hate, sometimes those you really hate, sometimes those everyone should really hate (I use the word in the colloquial sense, on a more abstract level I believe that we should all love each other, however I use hate anyways since colloquially I think it can just stand for a strong dislike and demonstrate my actual hatred for those views). So banding with someone like Hagee, while uncomfortable (it would be intensely so for me, since I'm a Catholic), is something I can understand.

As for the remarks themselves... while those who know me might be a little outraged by this, it doesn't seem too far from the general tradition of looking at history as a DIRECT expression of God's will. Hence the genocidal Assyrian Empire becomes God's sword. I personally think that's much too limited a way to look at history, especially given the theological implications of free will, however, I do see it as valid.

Yet I still think Hagee was immensely wrong and justly chastised for saying the remarks. A view like that incorporating the Holocaust into such a theory of history shouldn't be said outside of a strictly academic and/or theological setting, because if they are said casually like this it gives the signal that we can look at Hitler and the Holocaust as just another chapter of history. And we can't do that.

Because if it's just another chapter, it's not an extraordinary outrage, and then it's something bad but maybe the results were worth it, and then with a good deal of logic twisting we get genocide is an option for national aims. It can never be such an option, and that is why there must be a firewall in popular culture around talking casually about the Holocaust like that, especially in a way that almost semi-compliments it. It's just like when people say "Well, Hitler did bring the German economy around," putting aside the fact that Hitler's economic policy was fundamentally flawed (it was overheating the German economy and may have been impossible to maintain without war), saying something like that might be valid in an academic historical/economic setting, but said in public, from a position of authority, a statement like that reduces the horror of the Holocaust, and makes it just a little easier for it to perhaps, maybe, someday happen again.

Least that's how I see it.

Submitting....

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Reader comments (50) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
Highlighted dates in Hitler's extermination plan 1922 -1942 (credit: lamarina conservapedia) [1068 words]GeorgeJul 31, 2020 12:15259786
Interesting Observation of Hagee [88 words]Larry OakesOct 14, 2008 15:14140167
Pastor Hagee Must Await Moses - not Jesus. Because.. [259 words]IamJosephAug 29, 2008 23:45137640
Hey IamJoseph! [62 words]AhmadAug 31, 2008 00:46137640
Jesus the greatest of all [295 words]DanSep 10, 2008 15:20137640
John Hagee, The Holocaust and Me: Thinking about Allies [191 words]Debbie ShaferJul 28, 2008 17:05135833
Thank you Dr. Pipes [274 words]There is NO Santa ClausJul 24, 2008 15:40135635
john hagee supporting israel [53 words]rachaelJul 21, 2008 16:35135521
I agree too [14 words]CherylJul 19, 2015 17:41135521
I'll take "enemies" like John Hagee anyday over "friends" like B. Hussein Obama [42 words]Joe KaffirJul 13, 2008 21:12135010
I regret only distance precludes me from being in the audience. I am Jewish. [14 words]AlanJul 4, 2008 06:48134368
taking a stand [24 words]m.j.sisemoreAug 23, 2008 17:00134368
Evangelical anti-Judaism undermines support for Israel [222 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
rubenJun 26, 2008 14:40133484
Thank you for your candor! [542 words]Susan BrowneJul 11, 2008 15:34133484
Um... [172 words]Robert ParkerJun 11, 2008 13:38131786
ok [57 words]LynnJun 14, 2008 10:32131786
pertinent difference [163 words]bosJun 16, 2008 06:19131786
1Pastor John Hagee is God's prophet to the Jewish people and the world [108 words]Margaret HoodJun 11, 2008 09:56131754
Hagee a prophet of Israel? I dont think so hunny [72 words]GabbyJun 23, 2008 10:27131754
Pastor Hagee is commended by many Jewish Rabbis for his love of the Jewish people [125 words]Margaret HoodJun 24, 2008 09:05131754
Really, it's not whether you stand by him or not, but your why's [578 words]RandJun 7, 2008 15:59131387
All Christians must support Israel, even with differences. 08 [114 words]Phil GreendJun 6, 2008 21:22131340
Hagee's ok by me, in fact more than ok [50 words]UIJun 6, 2008 11:06131304
Hagee: Speaks More Israeli than Israelis; Bigger Supporter of Israel than many left wing educated US Jewish people [39 words]james burkeJun 5, 2008 16:44131219
Bravo. Spine. [51 words]Charles StewartJun 5, 2008 00:57131149
Problem with Hagee's "support" of Israel [118 words]MichaelJun 4, 2008 14:15131105
Michael, I have good news! [267 words]Susan BrowneJul 11, 2008 16:23131105
How Great It Is that there Is a John Hagee and CUFI -- Caroline Glick also writes on the subject [156 words]Sofa SogoodJun 4, 2008 00:54131051
A letter of support for Dr. Pipes [284 words]Ken BesigJun 3, 2008 12:36130997
John Hagee and Allies [472 words]Gabrielle CroftsJun 15, 2008 03:20130997
"Common Cause" Issue [321 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
sammishJun 3, 2008 11:49130991
Thank you Daniel Pipes. [14 words]CindyJun 2, 2008 03:03130854
That's why I like Dr Pipes [57 words]Amitabh TripathiJun 1, 2008 06:38130759
Daniel Pipes sees the big picture - [52 words]jennifer solisJun 1, 2008 03:43130743
Leonard Fein needs to go back to Jewish Day School [262 words]Ken BesigMay 31, 2008 18:02130683
well,.well, and my, my [249 words]mz ravin blackJun 1, 2008 13:10130683
Ken, was wondering [171 words]YnnatchkahJun 10, 2008 04:54130683
Journalists: Creating problems to sell solutions. [325 words]YnnatchkahMay 31, 2008 04:49130645
Thank you [86 words]YelenaMay 30, 2008 22:42130609
CUFI and the Jewish people [28 words]Kevin FretzMay 30, 2008 17:38130586
Pastor John Hagee and all who are United for Israel.... thank you [154 words]Rochelle MichaelsMay 30, 2008 17:01130582
America must stand with Israel or be "Left behind" by a God who will curse those who don't. [144 words]Margaret HoodJun 24, 2008 09:18130582
Journalists, here to direct us [69 words]InfidelMay 30, 2008 16:44130580
Journalism's evil history [67 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiJun 7, 2008 05:48130580
Loyalty where needed [113 words]Rebecca MouldsMay 30, 2008 14:59130573
Hagee and Pipes [40 words]Barry L WolfeMay 30, 2008 09:24130560
Let's Look At What People Do [427 words]JeffJun 3, 2008 15:46130560
Bravo Jeff [157 words]saraJun 3, 2008 17:41130560
Political agreement, not principled agreement [123 words]GestellJun 8, 2008 20:41130560
You Might Want To Do a Bit More Reading... [44 words]JeffJun 12, 2008 14:22130560

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