"Armenian genocide"? "No! Just "homogenization" of Turkey between 1915-1923 !"

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Mar 13, 2010 at 08:46

Cagri wrote:

> But courage, Turk!

Ah, that's one of your prejudices, being from Turkey does not make me "Turk".

No? You realized at last that your forefathers were Greeks and Armenians frocibly Islamized by the Turkish barbarian invaders? It's where your European-looking face comes from. Real Turks are after all Mongoloids like Uzbeks , Kazakhs, Kyrgys...

>Alas, a simple one, I can ignore.

Feel free to ignore as much as you wish. It will make an easier reading for you.

> I'm not afraid of long replies, I believe in sticking to subject at discussion. For this thread: Kemalists or AKP. The reason I did not reply your message with every claim was because of your wide divergence form the subject.<

Details, please ! Where did I exactly diverge from the subject? By exposing the real , personal nature of the conflict between Ghazi Kemal and his caliph ? Well, if exposing Turkish lies is 'diverging from the subject', then I admit I do diverge from "the subject" all the time. The subject was Turkish make-believe, wasn't it?

> As you do not seem to be lazy, that must be due to your moral superiority (isn't it a well known fact that Europeans are superior anyway?).<

European morality is definitely superior to your Oriental brainwashed herd morality. If a crime is committed here, you'll always find and hear somebody exposing it. If a genocide is committed in Turkey with 1,5 mln Armenians and 1 mln Greeks exterminated and a few other religious groups are wiped out in the process, the whole Turkish nation does its best to silence, intimidate, terrorize, persecute, kill and vilify anyone who hints at what has happened. This is really the most hateful and disgusting feature that I find in you Turks.

> To enable you to answer me, and benefit from your great knowledge which seems to be more than the "ignorant" Turks who does not know who they are, here is one "fact" you pick from CIA factbook that you seem to be very fond of:

>> Turkey is a purely Islamic country with its incredible 99,8% Islamization rate ...<<

>This official count counts me, an atheist, as Muslim too.<

First, I am not sure if you're an atheist at all. I'd love to hear some of your jokes and curses against Allah and his so called prophet and then I can consider what you say as probable. For the time being the facts are that you're circumcised as every Moslem, that shahada has been whispered into your ears when you were born, that your parents gave testimony before the ummah that you belong to the Moslem horde. Second, I am not sure what do you respond during the population census, when the question of confession is posed to you. Third , I'd love to hear your conversation when you're among other Moslems. There is much hypocrisy in every Turk and it's eloquently confirmed below by your glib and meaningless circumlocution of genocides perpetrated by the Turks as "homogenization". What a clever lie that speaks volumes on what you really stand for! The Armenians experienced a "homogenization" between 1915-1923, didn't they ? ;)

But even provided that you pass through all these doubts unscathed, you may still belong to those 0,02% of Turks who are not Moslems. For you it may mean a lot, for the general conclusion it is meaningless just as calling genocide "homogenization" is meaningless as to the subject matter covered by thousands of documents and testimonies. So it's good you're aware of it saying :

>I and the people like me I know may not take this number much down, I should admit. However, 10 to 20% Alevi's do not necessarily belong to the "Islam" you have in mind. <

And who are they , these shi'as , according to you - Christians and Jews ? Do they deny Allah? Do they deny Mo? Do they not read the Quran? Don't their follow diverse nonsensical Moslem rituals?

> Indeed, there had been "homogenization" of the country all along, and that reduced the number of other religious varieties a seriously.

I told you one can't expect a Turk to call a spade a spade, didn't I? So what we have here is Turkish doubletalk at its best- this bird-like neo-Ottoman lie parlance in which a genocide becomes "homogenization"! Well, indeed, if you murder and forcibly convert to Islam all Christians within your reach, then what you achieve is "homogenization". You call the end result and forget to mention the means applied by the Turkish savagery to achieve that end. But you're just a Turk, despite all your mental reservations and semantic tricks and traps, aren't you ?

>No doubt this is bad, and Turkey itself suffered more from loosing it's original mixture more than anyone.<

Paying more lip service to mislead and cheat me ? I have heard many Turks that blessed every Turkish knife that cut Armenian and Greek throats, every Turkish penis that raped and humiliated kafiri women and girls as bullets seemed to them too precious to be wasted on them and respect was preserved for the Moslem hore members only.

Now you speak of some Turkish suffering as a result of genocide. Curious. But well, you may mean exposing Turkish barbarity and its rotten Islamic roots causes some suffering, doesn't it ? How many times did you have to lie about the genocide issue ? Everybody knows that and you had to deny and lie and lie. It's very stressful, I understand.

Well, who knows your history knows also that Turkey is not reformable. It can play comedies of reform and cheat the stupid foreigners out of their resources in exchange for fantastic promises that never materialize. Turkey's aim is to conquer, oppress and exploit as in the times of Ghazi Osman I and as it was in the times of Ghazi Mustafa Kemal Pasha or as it happened in Cyprus in 1974. The same old beast lives on in Turks today.

> And, for that, as much as Kemalists, you should blame "humanitarian" European approach of the day, and first incarnation of AKP. The first "exchange" in the history of Turkish Republic was requested by League of Nations, to rescue the remaining higher race/religion from the barbarian Turks.<

Requested? How funny. Before the arrival of the Turkish savages in Smyrna, the Americans and British requested security for the civilians in Smyrna. The request ended with wild unheard-of massacres under the eyes of the world with Kemalist butchers and sadists burning people alive in churches. Before that in Pontus Kemal's friend Frunze had seen similar Kemalist massacres. He requested they should be stopped. Kemal told him a lie. He "couldn't" do anything and slaughtering went on. Interestingly, how selectively Kemal accepted requests and how expertly he conducted his genocide ... his "homogenization".

> Of course you can blame Kemalists for accepting the request, but you should pay the credit to originator too.<

One diverging question, you're no historian, are you?

> Second one in 1950's happened while the first incarnation of AKP was in rule, like the current one, I'm sure they were all innocent, and it was all Kemalists who started it, but truth is nobody tried to prevent it.

What for? Kemal exerminated the Greeks and Armenians in Smyrna and in Pontus. The massacres in Constantinople were prevented in the autumn of 1922 only because the British massed their navy near Chanak. In 1955 the Kemalists saw their chance with no British navy in sight (the British novelist Ian Flemming as an eyewitness can be forgotten) , friendly and smiling Americans too much obsessed with the Soviets to object such a trifle as a huge Greek pogrom - to finish what Kemal had started. So all participated in looting, desecrating, raping, killing, maiming. It's what the Turks can do best – destroy!

> Indeed, there has been heavy homogenization work going on, and Kemalists are not innocent on that, but that does not make others "AK".<

Your "homogenization" again?

> There has been an "Islamization" in the country, particularly after 1980 (and accurate for the purpose Daniel Pipes' article does not list 1980 military intervention), but this has nothing to do with your 99,8%. Percentage was probably more-or-less the same.

When you exterminate all which is non-Islamic then what you're left with is necessarily is only Islamic.

I can tell you -to diverge from the subject a bit but not really much - that in Abkhazia there is an interesting ethnic group. They are Turks, speak Turkish and confess Christianity and have church service in Turkish. It turns out that they came here from Pontus together with the Greeks who escaped the Kemal-inspired genocide of 1919-1923. They were expelled by Kemal's jihadist army despite the fact they were Turks except for Islam. Interesting, isn't it ?

> The difference is on the number of people who is practicing and the ratio of social prominence and institutionalization of the religion. My parents state that they are Muslims, but I've never seen them going to mosque, nor having problems with my beliefs. This was fine for their "Islam", and most of the "Islam" I know in Turkey, but not for the AKP idea of "Islam".<

I don't know what is really happening in your parents' mind. What I know that in Islam the Moslem herd follows blindly the few leaders and the more Islam is in a country the more willingly people like your parents will follow them. Who would think in Iran of 1978 that in a year or two Iran will become an Islamic Republic? Everything seemed so idyllic and secular ... just like in Turkey with the small disturbing fact that after Saudi Arabia Ataturkistan is the second-most Islamized country in the world.

> With regard to Islamization, the current state in Turkey, in my opinion, is not that scary yet. My personal experience is that average Turksih citizen is still less religious than average Polish citizen (Admittedly subjective, I know the country relatively well, my wife is Polish). <

;) Turkish favourite method of deflecting from the subject by comparing Islam to Christianity and Turkey to Poland. What a parody! Ask your wife how many caricatures of our clergy, Jesus, the pope she has seen recently (if she hasn't seen I may send her a few) and how many riots were organized in Polish cities in response to that, with threats to behead the authors and demolish the publishing houses that spread the blasphemous images and our prime minister encouraging the fanaticised masses ?

> But, hey.. I'm again forgetting, Catholicism is "morally" superior to Islam, so this is irrelevant sorry.am, so this is irrelevant sorry. <

You forget or I'd rather say you prefer to forget too much which makes a conversation with you such a thankless job. In short, a religion which allows you to criticize its dogmas and disagree with it (Catholicism) is definitely much much SUPERIOR to a religion which denies you that little favour (Islam) and many more. We have had here no cases of apostates from Catholicism and critics of the pope being tortured for 3 hours before slicing their throats as in Malatya . We haven't had a priest being shot dead by a youngster shouting in Trabzon "Allahu Akbar" either.We haven't had any fanatical Moslems stabbing a priest to earn some extra huris in Allah's paradise. And we haven't had a Moslem carrying a knife and a picture of Ataturk in his pocket and roaming the streets of Constaninople in search of a Christian to slaughter . We are also spared this shameful fact of brave Moslem mobs keeping quiet in public and rejoicing in private when all the above crimes take place while being seized with an wild fever of hatred and raising a moral outcry when in German a Moslem co-religionists is killed.

If these small but decisive things which you prefer to forget (or you think that stupid kafirs don't know them ) don't make Christianity morally (not "morally" as you maliciously imply) superior to Islam , then I congratulate you on both your high "moral" standards and mentality. Your remarkable phrase of 'homogenization" as a convenient replacement word for "genocide" becomes much more understandable in this context, you nasty Moslem apologist. I must never forget I am dealing with a Turk.

> Before diverging too much:

The original article says: There is a crisis between Islamists and Kemalists.
You say: ... Turks. Nothing is positive about this country so why bother. (but still bother to write long notes full of hate)<

The most potent argument of the Turks against any exposition of their lies is this deceitful insinuendo the argument is "full of hate". Now what's wrong about hating evil , if I may ask ? You're demanding loving and toerating evil, you Turkish trickster!

Second, Dr. Pipes' Manichean antithesis (Kemalist vs.Secularist) can't stand as it is. To understand why - one has to explore a bit in depth the jihadist origins of Kemalism and Kemal's personal -not ideological - conflict with the caliph and the vicissitudes and erratic history of his career. Kemal had no stable principles. He was an opportunist who allied himself with all possible forces, betrayed and cheated them all to stay in power. On the other hand, one has to be realistic about the deeply Islamic nature of Turkey which is immune to any durable secularisation. If one bears those two things in mind, then one can never agree with Dr. Pipes' sweeping conclusions.

I leave apart here the role of US moneyed interests in Turkey that support the militarist regime and as they need an ideological hijab to cover their dirty dealings with the Kemalists pashas the Kemalist-secularist legend is quite useful. But what many contend is that the real conflict in Turkey is not ideological at all but it is waged for down-to-earth material privileges and personal power. The militarists want to stay where they are with huge budget resources allocated to them and all the prerogative they've enjoying for the last 70 years, with impunity for their depredations and misrule. Their opponents want to change that and get some of their pivileges. Islam is a shared faith by both opposing parties as de-Islamization of Turkey which might justify the Pipes antithesis is not given at all. Quite the contrary! A country with a mosque for every 350 persons (the world-wide record !) , more imams than doctors and teachers and the Diyanet (Islamic Instruction Directorate ) budget larger than eight other ministries combined can hardly be called secular ... even by the most fexible standards.

> I say: If you have any sypmathy towards personal freedom, democracy and human rights, do criticize Turkish official policy, but without siding with AKP. Kemalists will give in to a more democratic system eventually. But if AKP manages to get what they want, possibility of democracy will be farther away than now .<

Nonsense! No militarists are for democracy or have never been. They want to keep and exert power and control. Besides, in an Islamic society democracy is impossible. Despotic theocracy is what is exclusively compatible with the Islamic worldview and democracy can function only as a parody, decorous window dressing. Take Algeria or Syria or Iran as examples. And as far as Turkey is concerned, it can have either unelected generals or elected imam (just like Erdogan is an imam) to rule the country despotically. In both cases the resulting regime will remain a dysfunctional, despotic, oppressive, Oriental police state.

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