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How much Islamic do you need to be to become 'secular' ? 100% !

Reader comment on item: Islamist Turkey Overreaches

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Jun 8, 2010 at 16:25

After reading Dr. Pipes' article I was wondering over one simple question. If all the problems for Israel and the West come from "bad Islamists" in Turkey , then why did "secular" Turkey vote against the creation of the state of Israel in 1947 together with such unsecular countries as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen , Pakistan ? In 1947 there was no bad Erdogan in office to blame and Kemal's one-party republic was ruled by Kemal's true followers .

It seems to me that Dr. Pipes rather too faithfully follows and reiterates the official Turkish tale of great Kemal and his good "secularist" successors heroically fighting "bad" Islamists . True , he realizes that one big problem of the Turkish tale is that "Turkey is nearly 100 percent Muslim" after all , but never mind ! You can always make a virtue of necessity and create out of a 100% Islamic monoculture "a purely secular state" according to the wise words of Kemal . And no one in Turkey can ever contradict in public what Kemal said without facing a jail sentence on charges of denigration of His Holiness Ataturk . There are special laws that make any open criticism of Kemal illegal . But alas reality and Turkish legal fiction hardly ever overlap .

Now , speaking without any political correctness , this Turkish farce of lies and dissimulations stands and falls with the silence on the lies and frauds Kemal himself used to achieve his goals . So let's refresh and enlarge our memory a bit and let's recall i.al. that the father of Turkish secularism bore the supreme Ottoman title of "ghazi" , i.e. Allah's holy warrior for exterminating Allah's enemies in 1921-1922 , just like the great Ottoman Sultans did ; that his crucial Soviet alliance is comfortably omitted or played down on behalf of a much more politically correct "Westernisation program" which wasn't as stringent as it is suggested if one remembers how e.g. Kemal in person cheated the US by his Chester Concession fraud to get US political support for Turkey in Lausanne and at the same time kept with lies and false complaints US and Western capital as far away from Turkey as possible ; his reliance on Soviet-style state-based economic system and arbitrary tyrannical rule including anti-Jewish pogroms in Thrace in 1934 don't seem to correspond to what we usually "associate" with Westernization either , do they ?

Also a glance at how thoroughly Northern Cyprus has been Islamized - with a new mosque and an imam in almost every village there - since the staunch guardians of "secularism" with unfailing US help occupied that part of the island 1974 shows in quite a different light Dr. Pipes declaration – again following his Turkish sources that " Atatürk's order persisted into the 1990s, guarded over by the military officer corps , which made it a priority to keep his memory alive and secularism entrenched." Unless Kemal's lies , frauds and war crimes are included , it's all too good to be true ! In Northern Cyprus nothing happens without the explicit will of the Turkish army of occupation and all these mosques, minarets , Quranic schools, imams , churches and monasteries changed into mosques or stables , desecrated Christian cemeteries , besmirched symbols of Christian , yet never of Islamic (!) faith were approved and directly organized or instigated by the "the military officer corps which made it a priority to keep his memory alive and secularism entrenched" . How could it be otherwise ? Now if Erdogan had conducted the Islamization campaign in Northrn Cyprus after 1974 with all his priorities , the result would be exactly the same as it is under his alleged opponents . So how can we explain that ? How can we we trust such sweeping , unverifiable claims which are nothing but a trap set by the official Turkish propaganda ?

For me the real issue in Turkey is not about mythical secularism fighting real Islam . Turkey has always been Islamic and has few chances to be freed from it without a major external defeat . For more than 1000 years Islam has ruled everything in Turkey and what is paradoxical and absurd about Turkey is that with this secularisation farce staged by Kemal the Ghazi Turkey has been made much more Islamic than it had ever been . It has never -even in the most glorious Ottoman days of Mehmet II or Soliman - been 99,8% Islamic as it is now - all thanks to Ataturk's forced "secularisation" .

So , the real issue is not about secularism vs. Islam . It is essentially about who will be enjoying real power, privileges and wealth for which both parties are fighting with deadly earnest . Kemal's regime gave power , wealth and privileges to a narrow group of militarists – sort of resurrected janissary corps with 'secularism' as their new bektashi order creed . This narrow group of secular janissaries exercised the power just like their older predecessors – in order to accumulate even more wealth and privileges in their own hands at the expense of all the rest of the society justifying its parasitic position with some superior esoteric ideology which is even more obscure and less comprehensible to an Islam-only society than the assertions of the bektashi sect about its own role that has guided the janissaries as the guardians of Islam and the caliph .

But this Kemalist militaristic parasitism has provoked vehement reaction . Its opponents are fighting in the first place against the privileges of the self-proclaimed "secularists" as much as they are hostile to the outlandish and un-Islamic justification of the privileged position held by the militarists who in all other things except their wealth are as Islamic as their underprivileged co-religionists . For despite all the ado about 'secularism" they all have been circumcised , have done their Quranic courses , know their country's Islamic past and the reality on the ground , they know there is no alternative to Islam for Turkey . Islam is permanent , Kemalism is transient

So I can well imagine that under such circumstances a hidden compromise has been or will be reached in Turkey between the "secularists" retaining their wealth and loyalty to the new Islamic government and the so called "Islamists" gaining political control . "Islamists" need an army to fight the Kurds ... or the Jews ( depending on the situation) , they need police and the secret services to suppress the communists and socialists . The last thing they need is a rebellion or a civil war like that between Kemal and his sultan in 1919-1922 , which was by the way the real cause of Kemal's antagonism against Islam and the caliph who had issued a death fatwa on kemal .

What is more , from the point of view of external policy , it might be very advantageous for both parties to keep up appearances and so to get help both from the West ( "If we don't give money and weapons to our poor secularists in uniforms , bad Islamists will take our staunch ally over ") and the Islamic East in form of "charities" and humanitarian and moral support . Saudi Arabia has invested in green money some 15 billion dollars into Turkey . With such support and such money one can do big politics and spread really big and successful lies to anybody concerned . Perfidy and treachery in Turkish politics is as much a legacy of Abdul Hamid as it is of Ghazi Mustafa Kemal Pasha Ataturk who was a perfect liar and fraudster knowing what lie would be best used for whom .

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Reader comments (99) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
1Prejudice against non-Muslims in Turkey [64 words]StasDec 22, 2012 03:06201699
scenarios of islamdom [67 words]CanMay 4, 2012 21:05195440
3Turkey will collapse [8 words]Oguz TolgaSep 17, 2010 16:43178362
1Gulen [37 words]Joseph IIJun 20, 2010 20:20174604
same old story, do it and justify it; the Jihad [180 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh BharatPanthiSep 1, 2010 02:56174604
oddly reminiscent? [68 words]Yuval Brandstetter MDJun 20, 2010 04:14174579
1What really islamized Turkey [195 words]metacristiJun 18, 2010 08:12174525
1The lost of Turkey as partner is not that Important Anymore [502 words]Hamma MirwaisiJun 14, 2010 14:16174403
1Please find yourself another platform to do advertisement for your book! [273 words]Nihat C.Jul 30, 2010 05:29174403
1The lost of Turkey as partner is not that Important Anymore [473 words]Hamma MirwaisiJul 30, 2010 19:18174403
NOT TRUE [249 words]EKDec 20, 2012 16:16174403
1Islamic nationalism [16 words]Joe Six-PackJun 12, 2010 16:36174309
News Agencies have been Infilterated by Israel's enemies [88 words]UMKJun 11, 2010 14:36174243
6Boycott Islamist owned GODIVA Chocolates! [37 words]A FriendJun 10, 2010 11:22174166
4Boycott Turkey, the Black Sheep of NATO [540 words]Amy HowardSep 21, 2014 11:36174166
1Question for Dr. Pipes [32 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Aymenn JawadJun 10, 2010 10:13174165
at last the new emerge of turkey in islamic world [57 words]syed mohammad aliJun 14, 2010 12:19174165
2in your arabian dreams [89 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanJun 15, 2010 04:33174165
islamizm [203 words]havasJun 15, 2010 06:22174165
As long as ... [39 words]RobertoJun 16, 2010 14:50174165
1Just like your government wants. [409 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanJun 17, 2010 05:04174165
imperialists [264 words]havasJun 18, 2010 13:35174165
1watch and learn [959 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanJun 20, 2010 02:30174165
1water desalination [44 words]Yuval Brandstetter MDJun 20, 2010 04:25174165
i never meant to invade any country [232 words]syed mohammad aliJun 20, 2010 04:26174165
3Another victim of the Turks that invaded the Byzantine Empire [101 words]dhimmi no moreJun 20, 2010 07:57174165
hate [41 words]havasJun 21, 2010 14:55174165
1typisch [152 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanJun 22, 2010 05:04174165
3Moslem Imperialism [352 words]giborJun 27, 2010 20:37174165
know your enemy [124 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh BharatPanthiSep 3, 2010 02:58174165
1Where is the 'Outcry" for an "Investigation" of Turkey's aid and support of IHH, a Terrorist organization? [46 words]Sofa SogoodJun 9, 2010 00:30174080
assault on another NATO member [24 words]mythJun 10, 2010 05:10174080
1Not just Cyprus [156 words]IanusJun 10, 2010 18:38174080
1Why is Israel silent about Turkey? Why not support Kurds? [110 words]UMKJun 11, 2010 14:29174080
2Nothing new under the Crescent [190 words]IanusJun 11, 2010 17:07174080
why does Israel not ... [98 words]mythJun 11, 2010 21:30174080
Israel not helping Assyrians, Kurds, Berbers...? [84 words]SachaJun 18, 2010 06:45174080
1Time for a Radical change in Israeli strategy [172 words]Wise ManJun 21, 2010 17:10174080
Birds of a Feather Flock Together [40 words]Barry BlackJun 24, 2010 14:57174080
Kurdistan and Turkish money in America [682 words]IanusJun 27, 2010 07:40174080
Why Thank You [77 words]Barry BlackJun 28, 2010 17:04174080
Israeli-made drones against the Kurds [883 words]IanusJun 29, 2010 18:29174080
Who can answer the question ? [50 words]IanusJun 29, 2010 18:46174080
Point Well Taken [90 words]Barry BlackJul 1, 2010 15:10174080
correction? [198 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanJul 2, 2010 18:16174080
Correction Indeed [78 words]Barry BlackJul 5, 2010 14:05174080
Optimism? [98 words]Edward HalperJun 8, 2010 22:30174076
5Militarist tyranny vs. Islamic tyranny [65 words]IanusJun 9, 2010 17:07174076
1Turkish Democracy [101 words]Edward HalperJun 9, 2010 18:35174076
Turkey's Orwellian "democracy" [373 words]IanusJun 13, 2010 02:04174076
1Freedom of Speech [88 words]Edward HalperJun 14, 2010 09:37174076
"Our common struggle against terror and law-breakers" [304 words]IanusJun 15, 2010 18:04174076
2"I am Turkey." [1291 words]IanusJun 16, 2010 17:38174076
Turkey in uncharted waters [126 words]VijayJun 8, 2010 18:19174070
2Terrorist Turkey [206 words]IanusJun 9, 2010 16:16174070
Gaddafi makes it plain: Turkey to be Trojan horse in European Union [66 words]Jack RJun 8, 2010 18:07174069
Thank you for the info [209 words]AlexJun 9, 2010 02:57174069
Hegemonic Yearnings [68 words]Susan SomervilleJun 8, 2010 16:36174066
2How much Islamic do you need to be to become 'secular' ? 100% ! [1293 words]IanusJun 8, 2010 16:25174065
Ianus, don't let the endless venting get in the way of truth [594 words]LazmanJun 9, 2010 14:34174065
Lazman Turkey is Secular!!! [35 words]spaJun 10, 2010 02:48174065
1The Turkish gate-keepers of "truth" [2747 words]IanusJun 10, 2010 17:21174065
Ianus, you remind me of an Abraham Heschel quote [125 words]LazmanJun 10, 2010 23:43174065
Turkey......don't be quick to judge everyone! [111 words]FroikeJun 11, 2010 10:20174065
1Shortly on brevity [296 words]IanusJun 12, 2010 03:08174065
turkey is not going islamist [63 words]havasJun 12, 2010 15:39174065
1The honeymoon with a barbarian [1170 words]IanusJun 12, 2010 16:21174065
Ianus.....He knows his Turkeys! [50 words]FroikeJun 13, 2010 17:12174065
Ianus, it is quite obvious there is nothing I can say to ease your anger and resentment towards Turks (Secularists or Islamists). [46 words]LazmanJun 13, 2010 17:38174065
1Facts and minds [290 words]IanusJun 14, 2010 04:15174065
Thanks [234 words]IanusJun 24, 2010 16:33174065
1Turkey is just one in a long line of countries to have islam take TOTAL control. [86 words]Phil GreendJun 8, 2010 15:53174064
Don't confuse Turks with Islamists living in Turkey [236 words]LazmanJun 8, 2010 14:00174059
Interchangeability of "Islam" and "secularism" [172 words]IanusJun 9, 2010 16:53174059
Turkey and Islamism [172 words]Kiel HesselmannJun 8, 2010 13:48174058
2What should Israel Do? [113 words]Michael C. Geokas,M.D.,Ph.D.Jun 8, 2010 12:38174053
Alliance with the Greeks is More Provocation to Turkey [71 words]M. ToveyJun 9, 2010 19:31174053
2An alliance between Greece and Israel [71 words]Stergios BakasJun 21, 2010 05:50174053
turkey [159 words]havasJun 8, 2010 12:36174052
good for Turkey ? [56 words]mythJun 9, 2010 12:41174052
not the end of life [164 words]cemJun 10, 2010 15:14174052
Russian tourists as a source of financing anti-Russian activities of the Turks [412 words]IanusJun 11, 2010 17:58174052
NOT ENTIRELY TRUE [116 words]ekDec 20, 2012 15:51174052
1Turks are never interested in what is true. [938 words]IanusDec 21, 2012 16:03174052
Greek Propaganda [165 words]MozereDec 22, 2012 06:51174052
1Mozere, I know I am casting pearls before swine. [346 words]IanusDec 23, 2012 14:57174052
Ataturk's Secular Islam Was a Ploy [233 words]HistoryscoperJun 8, 2010 12:27174051
5Ataturk? Islam? [313 words]WhooApr 30, 2011 09:54174051
Implications for the Kurds? [132 words]Carmen Waggoner, Ph.D.Jun 8, 2010 11:10174047
Fantastiic Assessment. [155 words]SvetJun 8, 2010 10:54174046
How to draw the distinction? [109 words]CatJun 8, 2010 10:13174045
I Respectfully Disagree [199 words]Mark D.Jun 13, 2010 22:04174045
3IRAN IS THE ONLY SUPER POWER IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD, BECAUSE USA HAS NOT ATTACKED [171 words]F60Jun 8, 2010 09:00174041
1Wahhabi Sunnis [46 words]Solomon TaraganoJun 16, 2010 10:58174041
1Out, Turkey!! [40 words]Godfrey de BouillonJun 8, 2010 08:52174040
Wishful thinking , I am afraid . [321 words]IanusJun 9, 2010 06:07174040
Turk need it as much. [117 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh BharatPanthiSep 3, 2010 02:31174040
NATO and EU membership [20 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
mythJun 8, 2010 08:34174038
2turkey [336 words]giborJun 27, 2010 19:48174038

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