The Jews in the Last Days.

Submitted by Michael S. (United States), Oct 17, 2014 at 16:33

Hi, Tovey

I just realized that I only answered one of your two comments. The second was,

Revelation 7:2 does not speak of a spiritual sealing, but of a reality that Israel must be put through. And yes, there will be the harpazo, whether anyone is ready or not.

As usual, it's good to start by seeing what we're talking about:

Rev. 7:
[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand....etc.

You said this does not represent a "spiritual" sealing. Which part do you claim is not "spiritual" (read, "unseen, yet powerful")? The seal itself? Or just the people sealed?

I dare say, that you do not believe the seal itself is physical. In Genesis, we read that Cain had a seal put on him, so that those who came across him would not kill him on the spot. Since the seal was meant to be seen by people, we can assume it was physical. But what about this "end-time" seal?

Rev. 9:
[1] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
[2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[3] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
[4] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
[5] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
[6] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

The "seals" are to be seen not by men, but by the special "scorpion-locusts" that are to torment the land (presumably the "Land of Israel", which is the usual meaning of "the land" or "the earth"). Will those locusts be looking for people with embossed foreheads, so they won't sting them? No, I don't think so. More likely, this unseen seal will impart some sort of sting immunity to the sealed one.

Of this (Rev. 7:9) assembly, it is said,

Rev. 6
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes (as also in Rev. 7:9) were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The locust event commenced with the opening of the sixth seal, which followed the above; so yes, there is reason to believe that the 144,000 were "(the assembled multitude's) brethren, that should be killed as they were", IF -- and this is an emphatic "if" -- the "seven seals" are to be taken chronologically in "earth time" (see below). If they were to be killed, then, in a similar manner to the great assembly (who were beheaded for their testimony), the "immunity" conferred on them by the "seals" did not keep them from ultimately being killed for their testimony.

I want to interject here, that this passage does not mention any intervening "rapture"; and the 144,000 are described as "brethren" who would have been killed beforehand. Neither did the "great assembly" escape the "great tribulation". They were certainly killed for their testimony, not raptured to escape death; and the same goes for the 144,000.

AFTER the locust incident, the seventh seal is opened. The events revealed in heaven, where John was in the spirit at the time, were revealed after the sixth seal had been dealt with. But did they happen after the events revealed in the opening of the fifth ad sixth seals? Much of what was revealed to John in the "seventh seal" chapters: certainly the various heads of the beast, five of which represented kings who had fallen before his revelation. It seems unreasonable, that the first six seals should be about things which had already come to pass before Patmos; so if the seven seals are to be taken chronologically, then much of the details in Chapters 8-14 might be considered background material, to explain the actual event of the "seventh seal".

I think there's good reason to believe -- from a scriptural standpoint, at least -- that the seven seals take place chronologically, That's because it says,

Rev 8:
[1] And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
[2] And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
[4] And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
[5] And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
[6] And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

That half hour that the angels waited: It was certainly half an hour of "heavenly time"; but was it half an hour of earthly time? Here, I will probably lose many readers: "Heavenly" time is not the same as earthly time, though there is certainly a relationship between the two. In Genesis, Pharaoh had two dreams in Joseph's day, for instance, in which seven spiritual cows and seven spiritual heads of grain. Both "sevens" represented periods of earthly time, namely, seven years -- the same seven years as each other, in fact. "Objects" in heaven, therefore, could represent "time" on earth.

What, then, about "time" in heaven? Most of the time, the sequence of events in heaven correspond to the sequence of the playing out of those events on earth. In Daniel 7, for instance, the four beasts succeeded one another in the heavenly vision corresponded to four successive kings on earth -- the duration of whose reigns spanned hundreds of years here, though in the vision they all were depicted in an instant. By this same reasoning, the seven bad cows of Pharaoh's dream, which came after the seven good ones; and these corresponded to a bad seven-year period on earth succeeding the good one.

So, did the events of the "seventh seal" succeed those of the sixth? And what should we say about the half hour pause in heaven? If objects in heaven can represent time durations on earth, what about time durations in heaven? What do they represent here? Perhaps they represent a "reset" of the vision, a re-winding of the earthly clock. I don't think that half hour represents a duration of time on earth, of ANY length; and neither, apparently, do you: otherwise, you would believe that the 144,000 were all over and done with before our time.

In fact, the 144,000 re-appear in Chapter 14, during the "seventh seal" period -- to whit, during the time of the "seventh angel with the seventh trumpet" of that period:

Rev. 14
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
[5] And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This 144,000, then, which you appear to think are Jews from the "tribulation" period, are described as the firstfruits unto God. How, then, are they to come onto the scene after the great assembly?

Nothing, in any of this, suggests a rapture; and the issue of who the 144,000 were and what was the nature of the "seals" on their foreheads has not been addressed. Were they redeemed from the Jewish people? Rev 14 says they were redeemed from "among men" -- which is where one can expect to find the "twelve tribes, which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1).

And the seal in/on their foreheads? It corresponds in Rev 14 to the name of the Father of the Lamb. Can a seal be a name? Seals can contain a name or symbol of the sealing authority. Alternatively, a "name" could represent the character of the one named. Either of these would have endowed the sealed one with immunity from the stings of the scorpion-locusts.

There is a great deal to consider here; but none of it specifically identifies the role of the Jewish people in the last days. One needs to look elsewhere for that.

Shalom shalom :-)

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