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Reader comment on item: Symposium: Turkey: The Road to Sharia?
in response to reader comment: France and Turkey

Submitted by Levent (Turkey), Apr 14, 2006 at 23:15

Guenter Levy is a nazi camp survivor who is a well respected holocaust historian - if youre reading this youre already on the internet and you can research his credentials and whether or not this smearing of him is warranted for yourselves. No need to take my word for it.

Dr. Kevork Bardakjian (surprise surprise) is an Armenian. Evidence USA-28 was considered by the prosecution to be of too dubious origin to even attempt to submit. Again, if you are reading this you are on the internet and can research this for yourself.

The more you read about this issue, the more it becomes clear that the Armenia lobby group version (read lobby group, not historical group - they are using this issue to pursue land claims against Turkey, hence their declining to attend the open historical conference on it that Turkey just hosted) is selective to the point of being dishonest.

An example of this is of comments of this reader of 24 books on the subject:

Reading books about the tragic experience of the Ottoman Armenians during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire is a sorrowful experience. I have read nearly two dozen and in none, whether the author is a Turk, an Armenian, or an American, is one presented with a rosy picture. Armenians suffered horribly, died in appalling numbers and were permanently separated from many of their traditional heartlands that they had shared, usually in peace, with local Turks, Kurds and others. Overwhelming evidence also portrays that the Armenians did not suffer alone, that the prosecution of World War I in the Ottoman Empire by its leaders was disastrous for the population at large. Nearly all accounts demonstrate that this was a hard era of state-on-state war, widespread famine, massacre and counter-massacre, and unabated disease.

Thus, given the breadth of suffering, I find it mystifying that this issue has so neatly cleaved the reading public into two distinct camps: those who interpret the Armenian experience as a genocide not just of a similar impact to the Holocaust, but analogous in its inception and execution; and those who interpret the Armenian experience as an immense tragedy made up of numerous crimes, but one that does not as a whole meet the internationally accepted definition of the term, "genocide." At one extreme are authors and their supporters who, favoring the genocide thesis, take no note of the role of Armenian revolutionary organizations, the attacks instigated by them on local Muslims and Ottoman troops, or the politics of the Ottoman leaders who were concerned with the imminent collapse on their watch of an empire that had lasted nearly 700 years. This group of authors also finds no room in their tomes for mention of Muslim suffering, as if Christian losses somehow counted more. On the other extreme are authors and their supporters who, denying the allegation of genocide, not only attempt to show that Armenian losses were much smaller than even the most modest estimates, but that the decisions that led to the Armenian relocations and massacres were soundly reasoned and valid to such an extent as to absolve the Ottoman leaders completely of responsibility for not only Armenian losses, but Muslim losses as well.

The two camps have engaged in a sort of arms race. Those favoring the genocide thesis have produced many more volumes than those who oppose the genocide thesis or propose an alternative. Seeking to stifle future debate, those who favor the genocide thesis now argue that because of the numerical preponderance of works that favor the genocide thesis, the genocide theory is factually incontestable. This ignores the small but important body of scholarship that, while not ignoring the immensity of the Armenian tragedy, steadfastly concludes that it was not genocide. These works are in many cases derived from the same original sources as those that support the genocide thesis and are the product, for the most part, of identical scholarly methods as pro-genocide analyses. The works on the opposing sides of the genocide argument can be placed side by side and compared by reasoning, reasonable, people utilizing the same tools on each work. And this is precisely what Professor Lewy has done.

Lewy has critically surveyed the literature, meticulously checking the quotations and verifying the footnotes. In so doing, he blows some sizable holes in the ships of the extremist rivals and once and for all demonstrates that anyone concerned with these cheerless events must consider the historic record unsettled and ripe for further research by well-meaning scholars. Lewy proposes that the controversy of the genocide term has been allowed to overshadow ethical lapses by certain authors, who he gamely exposes. Lewy, not content merely to review and critique also dived into the source material and revealed some new pieces that will further enrich the debate. In the end, Lewy declines to conclude that genocide is the proper way to describe the events. This will earn him scorn from those whose minds are already made up. But it ought to earn him great respect from those who would like to make sense of a controversy that has been enduring for over nine decades.

I have two criticisms. First, Lewy employs premeditation as an element of the crime of genocide. The drafters of the UN Genocide Convention considered making premeditation an element, but they declined; rather, they focused on the specific intent element. This does not weaken Lewy's work, however, as his conclusions are equally justifiable if one substitutes the term, "specific intent" wherever he uses, "premeditation." My second criticism is Lewy's apparent distaste for analyzing these events according to the terms of the UN convention. For better or worse, the UN definition is the internationally-accepted definition of the crime and any analysis of whether or not the Armenian tragedy was a genocide ought not shy away from the UN convention.

The criticisms notwithstanding, Lewy has produced an brave, thoughtful work.
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Reader comments (132) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
Racist Islamic ("moderate") Turkey massacred around 4 million - since its 1920s formation [66 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
MariaNov 1, 2012 11:15200223
Racist Catholic ("moderate")Belgium massacred around 20 million- since its 1833 formation [109 words]MozereNov 2, 2012 03:44200223
Turkey in ? I'm out ! [102 words]Robby (Belgium)Jul 10, 2008 15:58134800
2Who wants to be in EU ? [161 words]ErkinJul 25, 2008 05:18134800
1RIOTS! [54 words]hiJan 17, 2009 00:49134800
3We do not want EU too, do not worry robby the belgic [255 words]Turk AybikeNov 1, 2009 11:25134800
Roman [71 words]AlexedraOct 4, 2014 08:04134800
NEVER to Turkey in the EU [118 words]BillyBoyJan 19, 2008 12:57118545
1Never to Turkey in the EU [312 words]KemalistJul 18, 2009 09:33118545
1noobstar [111 words]Mert The AdolfOct 6, 2009 15:42118545
İstanbul [15 words]seçkinMay 13, 2011 14:17118545
No turkey in europe please [39 words]MassimilianoMay 13, 2007 12:3492718
1Turkish flag [794 words]JanJul 30, 2007 19:3192718
3YES to Turkey [341 words]Nico KOct 10, 2007 16:2492718
Its an imagination [34 words]GizmoMar 10, 2008 09:2992718
2YES to Turkey [417 words]MARMARISApr 7, 2009 19:0592718
Our dear marmaris and Turkish delusions [168 words]dhimmi no moreApr 8, 2009 07:3592718
1Keeping Europe European [804 words]TomMar 16, 2007 09:2586450
Educated European tom makes an uneducated European guess [430 words]Enver EthemerMar 23, 2007 16:4386450
Rape and Mid Easterns [63 words]OctavioMar 23, 2007 19:0686450
No2Turkey [38 words]Alex JonesJul 5, 2007 17:1886450
1to the pure, pure european [465 words]esinDec 6, 2007 20:5586450
agamemnon [127 words]erolJan 17, 2009 01:1186450
Road to Sharia [87 words]Enver EthemerMay 14, 2009 18:0886450
no way [32 words]aidonisOct 4, 2006 16:4258936
No not at all [174 words]ErdemOct 24, 2006 16:2858936
Blindness can cause personal dysfunctions [48 words]enverMar 23, 2007 17:1958936
reply [22 words]aidonisMar 26, 2007 13:3758936
No problem [150 words]Enver EthemerMar 28, 2007 14:1158936
... [8 words]aidonisMar 29, 2007 11:5458936
Grey wolf [16 words]Enver EthemerMar 29, 2007 17:2758936
You are jealous... [141 words]TekinJun 4, 2007 10:0958936
Ya, Ok ... [121 words]BillBoyJan 19, 2008 13:0858936
TURKS OUT!!! [12 words]BillyboyJan 19, 2008 13:1458936
So much for "Fact". [155 words]LeventJan 17, 2006 07:2831778
Turkey as a member for EU? [1597 words]OmerDec 19, 2005 07:1530176
WHERE İS EUROPE [121 words]cem akcaogluFeb 22, 2006 07:4330176
no to eu [699 words]canApr 5, 2006 23:5030176
Turks have complexes too! [372 words]MariannaOct 4, 2006 00:4930176
perfect answer [18 words]aliOct 8, 2006 14:1830176
10to marianna..... [242 words]denizzNov 11, 2006 11:1930176
Turks ? [100 words]Kapageridis StavrosJan 21, 2007 11:0830176
dear marianna [240 words]tuncerMar 20, 2007 17:4930176
Another ignorant european [100 words]EnverMar 23, 2007 17:1230176
ON EUROPE AND TURKEY [41 words]ASMar 24, 2007 17:1830176
what u said is complitely wrong [42 words]NigelJun 30, 2007 06:2230176
for stavraetos,the agent provacateur [64 words]girayhanSep 29, 2007 19:1130176
1No... [259 words]No_name_grJul 22, 2008 06:2530176
does the soul exist? [976 words]erolJan 17, 2009 02:2930176
India. [10 words]safa balOct 16, 2011 16:1430176
whats that ?? [66 words]response to mariannaApr 25, 2012 09:5230176
No to EU! [460 words]Yusuf Sami TurkerDec 17, 2005 15:4130118
No to EU! [40 words]Ronald MatthewsDec 30, 2005 04:1530118
No to EU! Let's Talk Genocide... [569 words]Yusuf Sami TURKERMar 4, 2006 04:2530118
TURKEY IS THE COUNTRY OF TOLERANCE! [42 words]OgunMay 31, 2006 09:5730118
Its time for Turkey to dump the EU application and flush it . [97 words]Bulent OzdemirOct 13, 2006 02:2730118
Dont you talk!!!! [135 words]AyhanOct 27, 2006 02:0930118
stop, in the name of love [154 words]erolJan 20, 2009 08:5230118
turkey [20 words]meralApr 19, 2010 08:3930118
1Turkey get lost! [18 words]EuropeanFeb 24, 2011 13:0230118
Greeks are black [4 words]Safa BalOct 16, 2011 16:2230118
Some perspective [310 words]BugraNov 26, 2005 23:2228879
Some perspective [45 words]Ronald MatthewsDec 30, 2005 04:2028879
Algerian Genocide [61 words]LeventNov 6, 2005 18:4327865
Algerian Genocide [24 words]Ronald MatthewsDec 30, 2005 04:1727865
Reply: [440 words]LeventJan 16, 2006 15:0527865
Your beloved Europe! (remembering history) [452 words]MemoApr 18, 2006 03:1727865
Respect to your roots... [213 words]CoskanOct 9, 2006 12:1527865
The french have never admitted their atrocities in Algeria [28 words]dragonfireOct 21, 2006 15:5727865
genocide? [92 words]ErdemOct 24, 2006 16:3727865
Give me a break [71 words]enverMar 23, 2007 17:1527865
The Eurasians Advanced Civilization..? [394 words]AmericaApr 24, 2009 23:0327865
August 1934 Constantine Pogrom: over 100 dead, bodies burned, girls breasts cut.. [525 words]MonaDec 29, 2021 01:5027865
Radical Islam? Try Europe [468 words]LeventNov 6, 2005 18:3827864
A Grand Game - wake up ! [396 words]Kevin WilliamsOct 3, 2005 13:1126566
A Grand Game - wake up ! [35 words]Ronald MatthewsDec 30, 2005 04:2426566
Turkey - EU [68 words]Ozcan ErdonmezJul 23, 2006 03:0026566
Thank God [77 words]EnverMar 23, 2007 17:2426566
perfect country:TURKEY!!!!!!! [10 words]duyguSep 24, 2005 12:0126253
turks do not want eu [77 words]ataJan 4, 2006 15:0226253
Turkey Facts [327 words]CemAug 23, 2005 11:0824988
No to Turkey in Europe [13 words]Octavio JohansonMay 16, 2005 04:5922117
hey [34 words]aysenJun 25, 2006 12:2622117
1Discrimination Against Turkiye [450 words]David SharonDec 21, 2006 09:5222117
to David [43 words]ASMar 24, 2007 18:0522117
David Sharon [13 words]SýlaMay 18, 2007 06:2722117
1Turkey joining the EU would be the death of Europe! Say no to Turkey! [18 words]David AndersonJul 4, 2007 18:5322117
No to Turkey! [119 words]JPSep 7, 2007 07:0822117
4Turks, Greeks and Europe [803 words]Billy BoyJan 19, 2008 16:2622117
no turkey at all !!! [32 words]bhaximNov 21, 2008 09:1222117
1GREEKS IN A HISTORIC SENSE [177 words]ZACHFeb 11, 2009 22:0422117
funny [85 words]suleymanJun 2, 2013 13:2522117
Good Article A+++++++++ [20 words]DmitryJun 16, 2015 05:0222117
France and Turkey [308 words]Octavio JohansonMay 11, 2005 04:1722059
Some education [205 words]LeventMar 10, 2006 19:3722059
Response to Levent [179 words]mamApr 12, 2006 17:0222059
Tsk Tsk [978 words]LeventApr 14, 2006 23:1522059
Just in case that isn't sufficient.. [208 words]LeventApr 16, 2006 01:0022059
Tsk Tsk Indeed! [383 words]mamMay 2, 2006 14:4222059
And you call us deniers of reality... [114 words]LeventMay 17, 2006 13:3122059
keep up with the research [168 words]mamMay 18, 2006 15:3422059
Robert John's response [537 words]LeventMay 31, 2006 23:1722059
Some expert witness! [374 words]mamJun 2, 2006 13:0722059
Ad homs won't change the content [226 words]LeventJun 10, 2006 18:2722059
simply incoherent [253 words]mamJun 12, 2006 11:3622059
So you can't source it... [22 words]LeventJun 13, 2006 05:4322059
Over and out [147 words]mamJun 15, 2006 11:4522059
Well Documented? [113 words]LeventJun 16, 2006 06:3522059
eu does't deserve turkey [47 words]gamzeJul 16, 2006 12:4522059
Turkey - EU [73 words]Ozcan ErdonmezJul 23, 2006 02:5222059
The French should not lecture others [161 words]zaraOct 13, 2006 00:0722059
Let's educate ourselves [389 words]CenkMay 10, 2005 14:2122046
Either you believe in democracy or you don't? [114 words]Jacob CarmielMay 9, 2005 10:5722029
Democracy what is it? [9 words]EnverMar 23, 2007 17:3322029
democracy [23 words]lolozMay 18, 2011 06:0722029
The myth of Turkish secularism [88 words]Octavio JohansonMay 8, 2005 05:0322023
The myth of Turkish secularism [27 words]Ronald MatthewsDec 30, 2005 04:3022023
State of the EU [433 words]LeventJan 2, 2006 09:2222023
Dont want to say I told you so... [719 words]LeventMar 12, 2006 22:0122023
reply to Ronald Matthews [50 words]betülMar 21, 2006 07:3122023
Ronald [21 words]SýlaMay 18, 2007 06:3022023
TURKEY is a democratic and TURKISH country!.... [254 words]çepniJul 21, 2007 17:5922023
Difficulty to predict developments [441 words]WernerMay 7, 2005 22:3922021
Cracks in democracy [121 words]Arvind MadhavanMay 7, 2005 03:3222019
Not in my name [225 words]Octavio JohansonMay 6, 2005 18:3022016
Response to Mr. Johanson [143 words]Germain Lucas, CanadaMay 10, 2005 12:3722016
Reply to Most Turks are into Radical Islam [180 words]betülMar 21, 2006 08:0722016
betul.. [43 words]memoApr 18, 2006 03:2322016
To Mam. [16 words]DevrimOct 9, 2006 22:5022016
About Turks [46 words]tuncerMar 17, 2007 19:2722016
Selam [73 words]TabMar 22, 2007 22:4622016
Betul [117 words]EnverMar 23, 2007 17:3222016

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