Allow me to enlighten you

Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Dec 30, 2006 at 03:10

Safraz wrote:

"I must say that I am quite shocked that in America today, after all the painful lessons we have learnt from our experiences with institutional racial discrimination against Black Americans, from anti-Semitism and religious bigotry against Jews – that we see the same bigotry being repeated in your description of my religious faith, my very sacred religious fate of Islam, as a "death cult that endorses mutilation, torture, pedophilia, rape, wife beating, suppression of women, racism, sexism, beheading, religious intolerance, deception, and slavery."

Safraz, allow me to enlighten you on a great many things. First, let's attack the issue of bigotry and define the word "bigot". From Dictionary.com:

bigot - n. a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Your labeling of me as a bigot is erroneous and inaccurate. I am tolerant of many differing beliefs. I am not intolerant of Islam simply because its belief system differs from mine. I am, however, intolerant of any belief system which calls for the destruction of my country, my friends and family, and the way of life I know. Islam does precisely that. So calling me a bigot is completely wrong. I am not intolerant of Islam merely because it is different. I oppose it because it is a violent threat.

As for my "death cult" comment, Islam does indeed promote these actions I have described (mutilation, torture, pedophilia, rape, wife beating, suppression of women, racism, sexism, beheading, religious intolerance, deception, and slavery). We see these things rampant anywhere there are Muslims, and they quote the Koran when justifying their actions. We see Muslims praising their children who become suicide/homicide bombers (indeed they pray for their children to become suicidal terrorists), we see an obsession with death, with dying in the act of killing Jews in order to attain Allah's gift of virgins in heaven. That by definition is the worship of death. It's their primary goal. Hence, it's a death cult.

Next, you wrote:

"Yes, I know you can quote me verses from the Koran that appear to justify your belief, but I can write a book on how you have misinterpreted the Koran for your own purposes."

Well, you lost your whole argument right there. I'm not interpreting the Koran whatsoever. I'm judging Islam based on the actions of the majority and the influence that belief system is having on the world. I don't care how Muslims interpret their religion, nor do I have any need of interpreting its teachings. Muslims will be judged by their actions. And their actions paint Islam as a violent death cult that spreads hatred, misery, poverty, intolerance, and death everywhere it spreads, like a virulent cancer. I'm simply reporting what I see and what the reality is. It has nothing to do with interpretations.

You then wrote:

"And for each such verse, I can find you a similar one in the BIble that is equally susceptible to misinterpretation - yet you're not here describing Christianity and Judaism in such a vile manner."

Perhaps because Judaism and Christianity are not trying to destroy my country, my wealth, my way of life, and forcing me to either submit to being a slave, convert to another religion, or be killed. I've already addressed in plenty of other posts the issue of Christianity killing native cultures and the violence that was done in the name of God. And I have condemned it. However, Christianity has become civilized and is a force of tolerance and goodness in the world. Compare the lives of people living in Christian countries with people living in Islamic countries. It's like night and day.

If Muslims are so concerned with Islam being described in a vile manner, then they need to stop acting in such a vile manner and there won't be anything vile about Islam to describe, now will there?

You next claim Muslim achievements that are inaccurate:

"Islam, as you may or may not know, was for some 1200 years, through the Moors to the Ottomans, at the forefront of modernism, human rights, and scientific achievement."

At the forefront via stolen cultural knowledge. For example, Indian Ayurvedic Medicine was the most highly developed system of medicine in the world (and still is, in many ways). When the Muslims invaded and sacked India (there we go with the violence again!), they bastardized Ayurvedic Medicine and formed Arabic Unanni medicine. They then sacked all the Ayurvedic libraries and centers of learning and tried to wipe out Hinduism and everything related to it (including Ayurvedic medicine). There are still parts of Ayurvedic Medicine lost to mankind. After that, they claimed to have the best system of medicine on the planet. And technically, yes, they did. But it was not Muslim medicine. It was Indian medicine which was stolen during the invasion of India and bastardized. It was still inferior to Ayurveda because it was a derivative, incomplete system. So obviously, their medical reputation was nothing to be proud of. It was stolen from another culture and claimed as a Muslim creation. There we go with Muslim lies again!

So once again, your argument does not hold water when we dig for the truth and expose it to the light of reality.

Moving on, you wrote:

"Women in Islam achieved the right of inheritance, the right of divorce, and property rights – rights that women in the Western world would not see for another 1000 years with the advent of the women's rights movements in the West."

I'm sure you'll understand that I am more concerned with the rights of women today than I am with the rights of women 1,000 years ago. I am concerned over what rights my children, my grandchildren, my great grandchildren will have. And with Islam, they will not have rights. They will have to walk escorted by a man, or face being stoned to death. They will be stoned to death for the "crime" of being raped. No thanks.

Your next claim is absurd beyond measure:

"Religious freedom in Islamic empires was beyond anything in the West at its time"

Freedom is antithetical to forced conversion, slavery/second rate citzenship, and death. And once again, I am concerned with the present and the future.

You then said:

"To argue that the dhimmi (the protected peoples) were seen as inferior is to miss the point that at that time, in that age, religion was your citizenship and thus to be Muslim in the Ottoman world gave one the full rights of citizenship."

And that is precisely the problem with the death cult of Islam. They want a worldwide theocracy, where citizenship is determined by belonging to Islam. As the CAIR representative said, they are not interested in Islam being "a religion" in America. They want it to be "the one and only" dominant religion in America.

And how disengenuous for you to refer to dhimmis as "protected people", when in reality they have virtually no rights.

You wrote:

"To argue that the dhimmi were forced to pay a so called protection tax, is to also blind yourself to the fact that every Muslim had to pay an equivalent tax and sometimes more, depending on the civilization we are talking about."

You miss the point completely there. I don't care what Muslims have to do. I don't care if Muslims believe they must give 95% of their income as a tax to Allah. What Muslims do amongst themselves and how they relate to their religion is their business and I don't care. However...

Your religion wants to impose its beliefs on me. I should not have to pay a tax to the mosque because Islam says I must. I am not a Muslim, I would never be a Muslim, and I would never pay a tax to a Muslim. But that's precisely what your violent religion wants to force on me. I refuse to be bound by Islam's rules. Islam, however, wishes to force its rules on me as a non-Muslim. Hence, we must forever remain in a state of war unless and until Islam comes to its senses and abandons its violent, fanatical, and brutal dream of global subjugation.

So clearly, your defense of the tax of non-Muslims is a failed argument.

Next, you wrote:

"Whatever the case, the fact remains that Islam is very capable of modernism and pluralism, and in fact for over a millennium, led the way in these matters."

Explain to me why, then, the so-called "moderate" Muslims are allowing the "10%-15%" (which is the nonsense we hear quoted all the time) who are "perverting" the "religion of peace" to dominate the religion. They have not become civilized in 1,400 years. And they show no signs of becoming civilized any time soon.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone says to me that 85%-90% of Muslims are peacful, and yet when we look at reality we see them doing nothing to stop the 10%-15% who are violent monsters, then the so-callde peaceful ones deserve to be mowed down along with the terrorits for being cowards. It's just that simple.

You next claim:

"And so today, the Muslim world is divided between modernists Muslims who envision a secular pluralistic state where religion is a matter of the private sphere, and Islamists who see religion as a matter of the state."

You really expect me to believe that? It's nonsense. Reality denies every word you just wrote. As I noted on another post somewhere on these boards, there was a rally for Muslims a few years back in Arizona, in an area where there is a community of 50,000 Muslims. It was a rally designed to allow them to denounce terrorism and to present Islam in a better light. Almost no one showed up. Attendance was 250 to 400 persons, most of them non-Muslim anti-war protesters. All the so-called peaceful Muslim nations we in America refer to as "our allies" (that's a joke!) like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan, are simmering with Islamic hatred that is barely held in check by the secularist governments.

As is always the case, the pro-Islam people are spewing lies and propaganda that are demonstrably untrue.
Next, you claimed:

"And from Palestine, Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan – almost everywhere in the Muslim world – you see this divide playing out in bloodshed."

Strange. I'm not seeing this "war" between peaceful Muslims and violent Muslims. It must be the most clandestine, unreported battle in the history of mankind!

What I do see is Muslims killing Jews, Muslims killing Buddhists, Muslims killing Christians, Muslims killing Hindus, Muslims killing atheists, Muslims killing Muslims (Sunni vs. Shiite). Muslims sure do a lot of killing!

Maybe you can take me up on my challenge and explain how the "religion of peace" is one side of 90% of all wars currently going on. Maybe you can explain to me how Muslims account for over 90% of all terrorist groups?

Next, you engage in the expected and standard dishonest argument all Muslims eventually stoop to:

"I consider myself a modernist secularist Muslim. All I ask is that you open your eyes and realize that when you make such grandiose statements as "clash of civilizations" and "Islam is the enemy," you strengthen the arguments of the radical violent Islamists (the real enemy) that Islam is under attack and must be defended with jihad."

In other words, we should sit back and allow Islam to spread its violent fanticism, its worship of death, its religious intolerance, its suppression of freedom, its terrorism, its sexism, and all its other evils? And if we just sit back and stop judging Islam by its actions and stop speaking the truth, that's going to make Islam become peaceful?

You, like all other Islamic apologists, always get this backwards. It's not Islam being attacked. You do not see Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Mormons, or any other religion going into Muslim countries and demanding preferential treatment. You do not see these other religions suppressing other religions in the countries where they are dominant (America is 80% Christian, yet we tolerate all religions equally). You do not see these other religions engaging in wars of genocide against Islam.

We are judging Islam by its actions and by its actions alone. Cause precedes effect. If Muslims want us to stop considering Islam a threat to freedom and happiness, then Muslims need to reform Islam. Otherwise, they have no business complaining when people like me call it a death cult.

You wrote:

"You create more real enemies this way and make my life harder when I argue to my fellow Muslims that we must reform our faith for the 21^st century, modernize and look forward, not regress backwards into the middle ages."

Another poor argument. I always have and I always will speak the truth, in the clear light of reality, and I don't care who if offended by my comments. Only a fool is insulted by truth and reality. Islam needs to wake up and understand that people (as well as religions) are judged by their actions, and that reality itself shows us that Islam is a belief system of death worship, violence, intolerance, and other vile, unacceptable behaviors. That is a reality that cannot be denied, and can be proven simply by looking at world events in every place where Islam exists. The burden is on Islam. When Muslims learn to stop blaming others for their failings and to start accepting responsibility for their actions, then relations will improve.

Finally, you wrote:

"If Islam is your true enemy – surely you must know that you cannot win."

Truly, Islam is the enemy of all peace loving, freedom loving people around the world. And surely I know we can win. Freedom loving Western countries defeated Islam before, it defeated Nazism and Communism, the latter of which wielded far more power than Islam will ever have. Right now, the West is weak because it has lost much of its fighting spirit. However, imagine what would happen if Muslims smuggled a suitcase nuke into New York City and detonated it. About 20 minutes later, Mecca and Medina would be glowing, radioactive sheets of glass, and instantly there would be 2.5 million less Muslims in the world. Then their population centers would be targetted.

God forbid Islam engages in such a stupid and suicidal attack. I suspect that America would experience a military coup and that the generals would nuke Islam off the face of the earth (since the politicians lack the backbone).

So yes, Islam will once again be defeated, and it will once again be reduced to tribal warfare between Shiite and Sunni in their own countries, and the rest of the world simply won't care at that point. Something to think about.

And, you wrote:

"How can you defeat an idea with a billion adherants, that at its very core, is the belief that there is one almighty merciful God and that Muhammed bin Abdullah was his Prophet?"

The same way we defeated millions of people who believed in Nazism and hundreds of millions who believed in Communism, both of which held far greater power than Islam ever will. By believing in a god of peace and love and goodness and confronting the evils that crop up in the world....

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