safraz restrain from talking about things you don't know

Submitted by susan (Italy), Dec 30, 2006 at 15:53

"Yes, I know you can quote me verses from the Koran that appear to justify your belief, but I can write a book on how you have misinterpreted the Koran for your own purposes. And for each such verse, I can find you a similar one in the BIble that is equally susceptible to misinterpretation - yet you're not here describing Christianity and Judaism in such a vile manner."

the koran is a made up book copied from ancient scripts and collected by muslims to gain power. How can an illiterate man like muhammad, all bent on caravan raids to tell such a book? It was made up and poorly thrown together by people after it. But muslims are too weak to admit it.

Secondly, you can find whatever you claim to find in the bible, point is, we had ENLIGHTMENT that mutd some aspects of religion that were interfering with normal life.

Other important aspect that differs the bible from your poorly-put together book is that nobody ever said or claimed that the bible is the direct word of god, it's written by men under the inspiration of god. That's why we can scrutinize the bible and reject some parts. the koran is NOT like that.

Please RESTRAIN in the future from talking about something you have NO clue about, which is the bible and its teaching.

"Islam, as you may or may not know, was for some 1200 years, through the Moors to the Ottomans, at the forefront of modernism, human rights, and scientific achievement. "

what we know is that it's a lie. Muslims never did anything for modernism, scientific achievement or human rights. Dhimmitude is the farthest thing from human rights. Can we say Slavery was a good thing because at least slaves were kept alive?

That's the same stupidity from muslims saying islam, the most racist ideology of supremacism, greater than nazims, cared about human rights.

Let's talk about scientific achievement. Muslims were no more than caravan raiders, all the things they possessed, it's because they looted. They used to steal whatever they needed, because totally unable to build up on their own.

The number of churches desecrated turned into mosques, just shows the lack of abilities for muslims to build things on their own.

Still today, you still need other people to do things. Your religion forbids any kind of development.

"Women in Islam achieved the right of inheritance, the right of divorce, and property rights – rights that women in the Western world would not see for another 1000 years with the advent of the women's rights movements in the West."

Women in islam are still today regarded as property, not human being, that's why they were allowed to posses. What's the point in possessing when you cannot walk alone without a male escort? what's the point in possessing when you are a mere breeder?

That's the reasons for that law, women count ZERO in the muslim world, if you let them possess something they are at least worth something.

And your comparisons of the west are pretty weak. Ever heard of female emperors? ever heard of cleopatra?

"But the bottom line is that these civilizations were in the forefront of modernity for their time, and if you don't believe it ask yourself and do some research on whether you would rather be a Jew in medieval Europe or in Moorish Spain."

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=4205&sec_id=4205

There was a hierarchical pecking order in spite of the lip service that all believers were equal.

Arabs stood at the top, Berbers provided the majority of the shock troops and hewers of wood and drawers of water followed by converts and at the very bottom were the infidel Jews and Christians no matter how significant their contribution to the arts and sciences.

The tolerant Spain of The Three Great Monotheistic Religions (often referred to as Las Tres Culturas) gradually contracted and was eventually extinguished as a result of repeated invasions of the peninsula from North Africa by severe Muslim-Berber tribes people who brought with them a fanaticism reminiscent of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

The Native Jewish population of Spain (many and perhaps most Sephardi Jews were native born converts rather than migrants), always a barometer of tolerance, quite clearly preferred the Christian North to the Muslim South from the beginning of the 11th century. Severe anti-Jewish disturbances began first in Granada and the Muslim South under the Almoravids and Almohades. The great palaces, artistic achievements and part of the sophisticated irrigation works of the Omayyids and Abbasids were largely destroyed by the new invaders. By the time of the final conquest of Granada - the last remaining Muslim kingdom in 1492, almost no Jews resided there whereas more than 225 Spanish towns had their distinctive Jewish quarters (juderías) still intact on the eve of the expulsion.

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Here it is safraz, the big lie of muslim tolerance exposed.

"To argue that the dhimmi (the protected peoples) were seen as inferior is to miss the point that at that time, in that age, religion was your citizenship and thus to be Muslim in the Ottoman world gave one the full rights of citizenship. To argue that the dhimmi were forced to pay a so called protection tax, is to also blind yourself to the fact that every Muslim had to pay an equivalent tax and sometimes more, depending on the civilization we are talking about."

yes, of course, and slavery was a blessing.

The Native Jewish population of Spain (many and perhaps most Sephardi Jews were native born converts rather than migrants), always a barometer of tolerance, quite clearly preferred the Christian North to the Muslim South from the beginning of the 11th century. By the time of the final conquest of Granada - the last remaining Muslim kingdom in 1492, almost no Jews resided there whereas more than 225 Spanish towns had their distinctive Jewish quarters (juderías) still intact on the eve of the expulsion.

"and if you don't believe it ask yourself and do some research on whether you would rather be a Jew in medieval Europe or in Moorish Spain."

Yes, I did and he replied

The Native Jewish population of Spain (many and perhaps most Sephardi Jews were native born converts rather than migrants), always a barometer of tolerance, quite clearly preferred the Christian North to the Muslim South from the beginning of the 11th century. By the time of the final conquest of Granada - the last remaining Muslim kingdom in 1492, almost no Jews resided there whereas more than 225 Spanish towns had their distinctive Jewish quarters (juderías) still intact on the eve of the expulsion.

By the way, safraz, one just needs to see how much religious tolerance for christians and jews there is in muslim lands, can we?

"So what happened? How did Islam lose its place at the cutting edge of modern advancements? "

basically islam could not rob anymore anybody. Muslims are a parasitic society that only suck the life out of a living animal, whether it's a jew or a christian society or hindu or buddist. Once that living animal dies or run and get rid of parasites, the parasites die.

"Whatever the case, the fact remains that Islam is very capable of modernism and pluralism, and in fact for over a millennium, led the way in these matters."

we just need to look around and see the very modern islamic countries, isn't it safraz?

"And so today, the Muslim world is divided between modernists Muslims who envision a secular pluralistic state where religion is a matter of the private sphere, and Islamists who see religion as a matter of the state. "

isn't it strange that not a single ONE of the 50+ muslim majority country is secular and pluralistic?

I see the modernist muslims as the majority definately (sarcasm off), not only modernizing their own countries but also kicking back western country to 7th century arabia

"All I ask is that you open your eyes and realize that when you make such grandiose statements as "clash of civilizations" and "Islam is the enemy," you strengthen the arguments of the radical violent Islamists "

no safraz, just criminals become more criminal when you point out that criminality exists.

When italy fights mafia, only the mafiose people become radicalized, the others fight with civil people.

So for muslims, if we point out that your 1400 year old fantasy book is a fraud and needs to be scrutinized and rejected, only the terrorists and fascist ones will get mad. We know that it's the far majority.

...People like yourself are more damaging than terrorists, the simple fact that you say sharia is good and right makes you an enemy of any western constitution and human rights.

"I argue to my fellow Muslims that we must reform our faith for the 21^st century, modernize and look forward, not regress backwards into the middle ages."

Islam cannot be reformed. It's a pagan cult made up by warlords in search of justifications for their lust.

"How can you defeat an idea with a billion adherants, that at its very core, is the belief that there is one almighty merciful God and that Muhammed bin Abdullah was his Prophet?"

safraz, how do you cope with the idea that your prophet is a caravan raider? he was a thief. And he married a child?

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