Your rebuttal changes nothing

Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Dec 31, 2006 at 21:45

Safraz, your rebuttal changes nothing. Let's look at what you wrote:

"On the cover of Newsweek one day during the war in Afghanistan, I saw a picture of Taliban forces performing their sunset Muslim prayers. The next week I was in Europe, opened a newspaper, and saw a very similar picture - Afghan forces performing their Muslim prayers at sunset - but these weren't the Islamist Taliban, they were the secular Northern Alliance, the force that fought alongside American troops in defeating the Taliban."

And what does this have to do with anything we're discussing? So perhaps Newsweek mistakenly printed the wrong picture. Or perhapsthat European newspaper printed the wrong photo. Or perhaps it was intentional propaganda, which is a legitimate wartime tactic, one encouraged by your beloved Koran I might add. Whzt's good for the goose and all that. In any case, what does it matter?

"In Somalia last week, secular Somlian Muslim government troops - with the great help of Ethiopian Christian forces - defeated the Islamists in control of Maghadishu."

First, why did Somalia need another country to come in and handle their Islamic problem? You keep talking about all these so-called "moderate" Muslims, but they're all ineffectual cowards, if they even exist. People like you keep claiming that Islam consists of 85%-90% "moderate" Muslims who are peaceful. So why is it that everywhere Islam exists, there is violence and atrocities, and the only way it ever changes is when an outside, non-Muslim country steps in? Why can't the so-called "moderate" Muslims handle the so-called "minority" of violent "Islamists" if they outnumber them 9-to-1?

Can you answer that?

"In Palestine, Islamist Hamas forces are constantly attacking Mahmoud Abbaas' secular Muslim Fatah forces."

Fatah is just as much a terrorist organization as Hamas. It's an organization created via distortion of historical fact and anti-Semitic propaganda. In 1969 along, Fatah carried out 2,432 terrorist attacks against innocent Israelis. Since 2000, Fatah is part of Palestinian National and Islamic Forces, a terrorist coalition that includes Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas, PFLP, etc.

The Fatah constitution calls for the violent destruction of Israel. Here's a few quotes from their constitution:

"Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence."

"Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated."

Farouk Kaddoumi, the secretary general of Fatah, publicly said in 2004 that Fatah's ultimate goal is the complete annihilation of Israel.

Do you Muslims really think us Westerners are so stupid that we fall for your obvious lies, distortions, and propaganda? Do you really think we don't research this stuff or something? Because you certainly act like we can't see through your lies.

And so it goes with the rest of your examples, no need to repeat myself in response to each location. The truth is, the so-called "moderate" Muslims who are supposedly the vast majority of Muslims, are either too cowardly to fight the supposedly tiny minority of violent Muslims or they just don't care. Either way, they all become the enemy via their own actions.

"By far, more Muslims have died at the hands of the Islamists, than have Westerners."

Muslims kill everyone they encounter, including themselves. If it's not Muslims vs. Everone Else, it's Shiite vs. Sunni. You act as if there is some clandestine, existential war between so-called "moderate" Muslims and violent, radical Muslims, but that's a lie. It's not happening.

"By far, the greatest enemy of the Islamists isn't the non-Muslim West - rather it is the majority of the Muslims of the world - we are a threat because we do not believe in their violent totalitarian interpretation of the Koran. In their eyes, we are the first line of resistance to their belief, and you are the last ."

If that's the case, why are they directing all their terror attacks against the West? Why are they blowing up Paris and New York and Spain? And if "the majority of Muslims" are so peace-loving, then why does such a small number of radical Muslims run roughshod over the rest? Are you telling me that the vast majority of Muslims are somehow impotent when it comes to policing violent factions? That makes no sense. Reality shows us that the terrorist factions are endorsed in large numbers by the so-called "moderates". Why do you think the Palestinians voted in Hamas?

Reality exposes your lies for what they are.

"In your eyes, we should be seen as soldiers on the front lines of the war against totalitarianism - instead you see us as the enemy."

You are the enemy. Unless and until you civilize your religion, denounce terrorism, and get rid of terror groups within your religion, you are the enemy. It's that simple.

Let me ask you...if the majority of Muslims are so peace-loving, why don't they just storm the terrorist leaders' homes en masse and hang them? Why not overpower the terrorists and end their reign of terror? Funny how Muslims are always able to gather in the streets by the thousands or even tens of thousands in order to murder nuns and arson churches in reaction to a harmless cartoon they find offensive, or to celebrate several of their agents flying airplanes into skyscrapers (killing thousands of innocent peopl), and yet they never seem to be able to gather a crowd to protest terrorism. Case in point: Arizona's anti-terror rally, in a community of 50,000 Muslims, where virtually none attended.

Care to explain that paradox to me?

"You, Noah, are a bigot, because this is clear for all to see - but you don't see it."

You, Safraz, need to consult a dictionary. I already explained this to you. I cannot be a bigot because I do not oppose Islam merely for being a different belief system. If it were peaceful like Biddhism or Christianity I wold not have a problem with it. On the other hand, Muslims like you always seem to have a problem with honest critcism of Islam.

"Rather, you paint all Muslims with the same brush that you would paint Al Qaeda and other violent Islamists."

And until they start acting differently, I will continue to do so. Also, I denounce your use of the term "Islamist" as obfuscation. A Buddhist practices Buddhism. What does an Islamist practice? Islam. In other words, they're MUSLIM. Until you come to face the fact that the problem lies in the inherent nature of Islam itself, you will never convert it from a psychotic death cult into an actual, productive religion.

"You are like the anti-Semites in the 50's that spread intolerance of Jews, based on the acts of the Rosenbergs - you blame an entire community for the acts of a few and you do it probably because of your own insecurities and prejudices."

Your accusation is so pathetic it scarcely deserves comment. All my statements are acknowledgements of reality. Why does that threaten Muslims so badly?

"Not only that, but you minimize the great scientific and artistic achievements of Islam by arguing that they were stolen. That is as shameful and as bigotted as an argument as I have ever heard."

I'm stating historical fact. Islamic Unnani medicine was nothing more than a bastardized, stolen, watered down version of indian Ayurveda. Historical fact. It can be researched and documented by anyone who cares to look into it. There is nothing shameful with speaking the truth, and your accusations of bigotry and shame are completely ineffectual when cast at me.

" What civilization in history started from scratch? The essence of civilization is its ability to learn from what came before and build on it. And that is what the Islamic civilizations did. They redisovered the lost knowledge of the Greeks and the ancient Indians, and built on this."

Muslims make the claims as if they had discovered these things themselve, and they did not. They simply stole or inherited them from others. Unani medicine being the best example I know of. Try doing yrou research instead of making weak, unfounded, and inaccurate personal accusations. It might help you to understand.

"Noah and Suan, you both lack a perspective on history."

Actually, you appear to be the one in denial or (and/or ignorance of) both reality and history. We've both done the research. If you disagree, try disputing it with documented facts and proofs. Good luck!

"You judge the Islamic civilizations as if they existed today in the modern world. You fail to judge them with their peers, if if you did that, their greatness would be clear to see."

I did that, they failed the test. Better luck next time!

"But I admit, that in the last 200 years, Islamic civilization has stalled, and in fact, as regressed. And that is why you see such backwards conditions in so many Muslim countries. And so it is time that we Muslims modernize and begin moving forward once again."

Well, you go clean up your own house and let us know when it's done and perhaps then we can co-exist peacefully. Unless and until that day comes, all freedom-loving people must denounce Islam for what it is...a demented death cult that is hell-bent on world domination under an Islamic caliphate and the suppression of all freedoms which is an inevitable part of Islamic rule, and we must fight to destroy this threat wherever we find it!

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