You're just not seeing the full picture

Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Jan 11, 2007 at 22:32

Michel C. Zala wrote:

"Noah, as incredible that may read, we do not differ in opinion all that much. You are once again making many good points and I do respect those. This time I will try to respond to specific quotes in your response, in order to evidence the above."

Fair enough. I'll rebut it point-by-point and answer your questions.

You wrote:

"Albeit, I decided to give it a few more days, before I delete the site from my favorites, as all the negatives of ISLAM have been laid out in extremis, which actually may be one cause for the simple assumption that (moderate, average ) Muslims have turned away from this site in resignation."

That sounds almost apologetic for them. Look...if the evils of Islam have been laid bare with no reservation and no sugar-coating, and the so-called "moderate" Muslims turn away for that reason, then that makes them part of the problem. Their inaction is precisely what paints them in the same picture as the radicals. If any so-called "moderate" Muslims are reading this forum, then it is their duty...if they hope to achieve equal acceptance and reform their religion...to confront these unpleasant facts and speak out. "Turning away in resignation" is a cowardly cop-out that does nothing to improve their image.

Next, you wrote:

"In essence, what I try do here, is to steer away from solely pointing out the dangers, negatives, obstacles, but try to offer basic ideas or opinions to approach the issue constructively and pro-actively on all levels of a multi-dimensional challenge."

Precisely what I am trying to do. My solutions are effective, constructive, and transforming on many levels. The bottom line is that Muslims as a whole are either too indifferent, too uncaring, or too cowardly to reform their religion. They must be forced to do so. Otherwise the malignancy will only grow.

You go on:

"This website features a mountain of evidence, historical facts, references and statements as to why ISLAM is dangerous and must be despised. (From the western point of view). As a business executive (leader in that sense) I train and motivate my teams to never come to me with a list of problems alone, but to come prepared with potential (feasible) solutions to them.. I do not see obstacles, but try to see challenges with opportunities to grow, learn and improve."

And I have indeed come forward with solutions to the problem. My solutions are workable, though tougher than many have the will for. But I don't see another solution.

"Here I have almost exclusively, and highly emotionally heard about the "problems".
I think there is sufficient awareness about those by now.( At least amongst the readers of this Blog.)"

However, awareness or rather acknowledgement of the issue is far too rare in our society. Few if any are able or willing to speak the truth, to speak out, and to stand firm for a strong response. As far as being emotional, we should be highly emotional about this. We are, after all, talking about the future of our country and the type of lives our children and grandchildren will be living.

"What I personally am missing are ideas. A catalogue of measures applicable in the 21^st Century to address the various concerns."

I thought I had detailed all that, several times.

"You said yourself, : , millions of them are already living here, that they are religious fanatics with utter disregard for their own life. ISRAEL as example does already turn on them and so with a vengeance, experience and expertise."

Gotta correct your wording there. Israel did not "turn on" the Muslims. They give Muslims far more freedoms than they have in any Muslim country. It's the Muslims who have turned on Israel. Instead of backing Israel for giving them a good life, they seek to destroy Israel because of their insane anti-Semitic barbarity.

" So I ask again - why do we not see suicide bombings on the same scale as for instance in ISRAEL?"

Didn't I answer this several times already? It's a fifth column. They are sleeper cells. They are waiting for a "big bang" like 9/11. Their strategy is not what you think it is. Though they are not civilized, they are nonetheless clever and insidious. They realize that if they start committing suicide bombings on the scale seen in Israel, that we will ostracize them. If they limit themselves to an occasional crazy driving his SUV over students on a college campus, then they can claim that person is the exception, which would play right into the propaganda our leaders (Bush, Rice, etc) always spew about how Islam is a peaceful religion hijacked by a few radicals.

They will use that leverage (as they are doing now) to slowly erode our society and take over from within. Just like a virus will infiltrate a host body using the path of least resistance, the Muslims are also taking that easy path. Mass migration. We already have pro-Islam propaganda being taught to our children, who are force to emulate being Muslim in our public schools. Certainly you've heard about those cases and the court battles over them? You need to understand, our enemy thinks in long-range terms. By undermining our society through mass migration and spewing propaganda designed to deceive people into believing Islam is a religion of peace, by influencing our politicians and indeed by getting Muslims elected into office, by manipulating the media and using the ACLU and CAIR to force Americans to silently accept Islam...these are the methods they are using to slowly take over. They're looking ahead 50-100 years. Most in our society are too stupid and too blind to see that far ahead.

And for me, the bottom line is this. Before we allow islam to grow to any significant proportion in our country, we need to look at reality and see what that means for us. Everywhere in the world...everywhere...that Muslims gather in mass numbers, they begin to engage in violence, they begin to turn on the state that hosts them. Britain, Spain, Denmark, Israel, Netherlands...see the pattern? Perhaps in America they have not reached sufficient numbers yet to feel comfortable engaging in outright violence. Who can truly read the mind of the insane and the barbaric? My point is, why should America take the risk of allowing a proven barbaric, depraved, uncivilized death cult to flourish in America and hope that we'll be the first exception to the rule? Why risk the freedoms we fought and sacrificed for, simply to "be fair" and appease a cult that has nowhere else in the world made their host country a better place, but have instead worked to destroy it? And once again I ask you to point out a country where Islam is dominant or where Muslims are in large numbers, where Islamic terrorism, suppression of freedom, sexism, and all sorts of barbarity exists. Can you name me one?

"Who is THEY? If I understand you correctly, then you bunch together all three categories. I try to segment the Muslim world (a, Muslims within the Western world – I call it Moderate Islam for lack of a better nomenclature, b, Muslims living in Muslim Countries, c Radical, Militant Islam, globally"

Muslims are Muslims. Muslims all practice Islam. Islam is a depraved death cult. It's that simple. According to the Koran and the Hadith and the other teachings of Islam, violence against the infidel is indeed called for. Any earlier peaceful verses are superceded by the later more violents verses (in addition to the early violent ones). What part of that do you not understand? It does no good to quote peaceful verses from the Koran, because they have been superceded by later, violent commentary. Unlike the Bible where the New Testament invalidates the violence of the earlier Old Testament. So a "good Muslim" (ie one faithful to his religion) is by definition an enemy of freedom and certainly an enemy to the USA.

What you call radical militant Muslims are part of every Muslim community anywhere I've found them, whether here in America, or at home in Iran. So to separate the foreign-dwelling Muslims from the radicals is pointless. Consider once more the Pew Center poll in 2005 where 88% of Jordanians endorsed violence against civilians in response to what they see as "attacks on Islam" ie cartoons, critical books, etc. Most Muslims living in Muslim countries are "radical" by civilized standards.

As far as the so-called "moderate" Muslims here and abroad, they still support terror by funding mosques and madrassas where they preach hatred. They support terror by refusing to speak out and reclaim/reform their religion. They support terror by remaining silent and by submitting to the will of the "radicals" who are supposedly in the "minority". Again, if only 10-15% are radical, then why haven't the so-called moderates done something about it yet?

"According to your own logic, enough of them are here already, perfectly hidden amongst us all, integrated and networked. I ask again- What are they waiting for?"As I said, they are using mass migration to instigate a seemingly "peaceful" takeover. In other words, no suicide bombings, etc. Slowly they will subvert our will and our culture, until they reach a critical mass, which is when they will resort to force. Show me the exception to this pattern, anywhere in the world. Can you do that?

"Well, if ISLAM could be seen as one integrated movement containing all three categories, they'd be ready now, as we speak, to commence large scale terrorist activities and thus destabilize the western world."See, here you are in fact the one thinking one-dimensionally. You think that just because they have the ability to exercise force, that they will. Not so. They think on multiple levels and they think far ahead. What did 9/11 result it? It resulted in the USA invading Afghanistan and deposing the Taliban and killing tons of terorrists, invading Iraq and killing tons of terrorists. We forced Al Qaeda's leaders into hiding and took out many of their high ranking planners. We took out one of their sponsors (Saddam, who paid $25,000 to each suicide bomber's family) and hanged him. We bogged them down fighting in Iraq, instead of fighting in America and abroad. We increased security, which resulted in the failure of dozens of other terror plots.

For them to increase terror inside the USA at this point would be counter productive. Look at what the response to 9/11 did to them. So instead, they're taking a more insidious route, capitalizing on our societal weakenesses...mass migration. There may be points where some of them simpy cannot control their urges to kill, and they will certainly commit high-level acts of terrorism from time to time in order to feel out our defenses and our will power. But make no mistake as to what their ultimate goal is...the domination of America and the West under Islamic rule.

Moving on, you wrote:

"Allow me to consider that as a rather daring statement, reminding me of the many conspiracy theories such as Roswell. According to the mainstream media, this attack was conducted by two single operating deranged supremacists who most likely fanatically hated any colored minority, including Muslims."

Well, the first thing I'll bring attention to is your implication that you rely on the mainstream media for all your news. The mainstream media is so biased and so corrupt that you cannot believe anything that say these days. Remember the Dan Rather/Bush debacle? How about the fauxtography issues?

Read The Third Terrorist: The Middle East Connection to the Oklahoma City Bombing by Jayna Davis.

There is a ton of evidence that has been suppressed by the government, which was par for the course during the Clinton administration. Anything linked to Islamic terror was downplayed and covered up.

Here's a quick link to start you on the path of investigation:

http://militaryspot.com/oklahoma-city-bombing.htm

Next, you wrote:

"I admit, the majority of peaceful moderate Muslims, as I believe exists, is regrettably amazingly silent. "

Which simply damns them with the rest. Look, if they are so weak, so cowardly, that they cannot take control of their religion from the supposedly "minority" of 10-15% radicals, then they don't deserve to be treated any better than the radicals. They are part of the problem.

"One possible explanation for that may be, that our domestic Muslims are first, second generation immigrants, coming from countries up to this day ruled by some form of totalitarian regime, where the freedom of speech is inexistent. Behavioral patterns created by centuries of oppression do not vanish overnight, just because one lives in a free country. To not draw attention, live quietly in anonymity is a form of conditioning which takes several generations in a free country to overcome. ( Just one possible explanation)"

Or perhaps they simply don't care. Perhaps they simpy do hate America and prefer Islamic rule. Occam's razor...the simplest answer is usually the right one. Perhaps because they are Muslim, they side with Islam.

And your argument does not hold water for several reasons.

First, there are plenty of 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims living here who are equally silent. Several generations of freedom is more than enough to "come out". Americans needed no generations to speak out...we rose from oppression to freedom from day one.

Second, these supposedly intimidated, culturally programmed silent ones seem to have no problem speaking out, protesting, crying on the mainstream media news shows, and demonstrating in large numbers when we throw suspisicously acting Muslims off the plane. They had no compunction about loudly speaking out to support their Muslim candidate when he was sworn in on the Koran (while loudly chanting their death cry of "Allahu Akbar"). The only time they seem to remain silent is when it comes time to condemn terrorism.

Can you explain that paradox for us?

"Evidently your personal experiences were negative. May I ask in what City you live?"

I experienced their "culture" in Chicago, LA, Raleigh. The largest numbers were in Chicago. I knew literally hundreds of them. I found...and I am not exaggerating here...literally two of them from several hundred I'd known over the years, who were not radical anti-Semitic, anti-American, uncivilized .... Two of them, who I tried to teach about the truth. They were not allowed to speak with me after that, and several months later those two were espousing the same virulent nonsense the others were.

While that is indeed a small sampling, it does constitute a pretty significant number of Muslims in a rather large metropolitan area, and you would expect that if it were true that "only 15%" were violent, that I would have found more than 2 out of perhaps 300-500 who were not violent or carried violent attitudes. Even those two were convinced only because they were relatively young and because I was able to demonstrate things to them that established that I knew what I was talking about. And of course, the families made sure that they poisoned those two with their depravity and cut them off from the ability to learn better.

Next, you say:

"We should here in the USA revise our so-called Freedom of speech . I mentioned Germany as an example where that has been done fairly successfully with the Neo- Nazi movement. The right of free speech has anyhow been perverted to the right of free slandering, insulting and mudslinging. I do not believe that it was or is the proper interpretation of our constitution or according to the intent of its original writers."

And again, I say we don't need any revisions. We already have laws against inciting violence and restrictions on freedom of speech. We have sedition laws which can be used. With the laws currently on the books and without any Constitutional changes, we can this very day storm every mosque and maddrassah in America and root out those who are preaching hatred and inciting terrorism. So why aren't we?

"Any kind of public display of inflammatory fanatism ( e.g your posters in the storefront) must and could be outlawed."

Most of that takes place around the dinner table and inside the mosques and maddrassahs. Do we start bugging their homes, their mosques, etc? That alone would create havoc and the stupid masses would cry out about "fascism". They do that already. Remember when Bush wanted to intercept calls from Americans to Al Qaeda members overseas? Remember the outcry about fascism and police states?

"Preachers of all breeds and religions trying to propagate (violent, militant) fanatism should be expatriated, even, if they are naturalized."

Again, those laws are on the books. We could be doing that today, if we had the will to do so.

"As (again mentioned in another submission) in Switzerland, the focus must be on enforced assimilation, as far as domestic immigrants are concerned."

You cannot "enforce" assimilation. Either a person wants to assimilate into a new host country or they do not. Forcing them to assimilate does nothing more than paint over the inherent hatred they have, and what you're left with is a seemingly normal citizen who is boiling over inside with resentment. We need to keep out those who do not willingly wish to be true Americans and remain loyal to America first and only.

"The school where Islamic kids work side by side with the rest or our melting pot, can so become the balancing force to any potential indoctrination at home."

It won't matter, when those Islamic kids are fed the psychotic hatred that their parents drum into them daily at the dinner table. Believe me, I've seen this in action.

"Prevent and eliminate these ghettos, where minorities live like in enclaves of their home countries and English becomes a foreign language"

They choose to do so. It's up to them to act otherwise. Instead of setting up Islamic stores catering to Muslims only, why not shop at American stores. Instead of dressing up like someone living in the deserts of Iraq, why not dress like an American? It's entirely their own fault when they choose not to assimilate.

"If you want to live in America, then you have to be American first, Christian, Muslim or Hispanic, Asian or white Caucasian later."

And there is the root of most of America's problems. The problem is, how do we get back to that? We're allowing far too many subversive elements to infiltrate and subvert our culture like a human cancer...Mexicans, Arabs, Muslims...and they're all loyal to their motherland and their religion above their loyalty to America. They aren't Americans. They're squatters, parasites leeching off America's lifeblood and future.

"Now you talk about the Muslims in their original countries. That's to my opinion a whole different story indeed and I have seen the same I regret."

No, you didn't read what I wrote. This was here in the suburbs of Chicago, not in some Islamic overseas hellhole. The same for the posters praising terrorists and suicide bombers...posted all over 63rd street.

Next, you wrote:

"[snip]with the Palestine conflict as its continuously burning ember feeding the fire."

A fire started by the PLO for propaganda purposes, with the help of revisionist history (and a template from Goebbels himself), and through the complicity of other Muslims countries.

"I am not arguing for appeasement or weakness, Noah. I do not believe in " the other cheek". All I argue for is to utilize a segmented approach/strategy towards the various dimensions of ISLAM as a culture."

You cannot "treat" segments of Islam, just as you cannot "treat" one organ of the body without addressing the whole body in order to effect true healing. It's an organic whole. Islam must be addressed as the core problem. Muslims must be made to understand that they are not welcome, that they cannot be trusted (due to their own Koranic mandates), and that they cannot be allowed to dwell in our countries unless and until they reform their religion and become civilized. That is the one and only way that you will ever fix the problem. Outside of that, there is no reason for them to change.

" In a nutshell, I promote enveloping all moderate Muslims while fighting militants with every tool of our arsenal."

And again, which moderate Muslims? The ones who stand silently while their brothers in terror fly planes into skyscrapers and ignote IEDs on our soldiers? The "moderates" who we refer to as moderate simply because they are not strapping on suicide vests, but who are nonetheless destroying our society through mass migration while teaching their children to hate us? The moderates who are afraid to speak out against terror, but yet who are perfectly willing to make a public spectacle of themselves and run crying to the media when we take a few arrogant and suspiciously-acting Islamic clerics off an air flight?

Are these the peaceful "moderates" you're talking about? Because I label them the enemy.

"Because it is not only the mumbo jumbo right thing to do, the ethical responsibility of the strong to help the weak, but purely pragmatic thinking in our very own best interest. Passiveness in the current situation would be suicidal for the Western World. Divide and conquer comes to mind, if one wants to apply a mindset of a military strategist."

Wrong, wrong, wrong. First, by doing all the work for another, we deprive them of freedom of choice. We absolve them of any sense of responsibility for their actions. We feed into their victimology mentality. By making it a situation where we accept responsibility for changing their behavior, we take on their job. We feed into their propaganda and in turn end up playing their game, just like the so-called "Palestinians" play Israel like a harp.

Wrong! It is their duty, their responsibility, to reform themselves. Since they refuse to do so, they must be removed from our society and denied access, aid, or compassion unless and until they change. Tough love, international style.

I don't advocate any sort of passivity. I advocate strong, immediate, uncompromising force to deal with the threat.

"Assuming that all the voices in this website intend to help preserve our progress, democracy and liberty, I would offer that we do need to be pro-active and do something, if we want to survive. Just standing passively by and demanding them to reform, ain't gonna cut it, Noah. We must use the key weapon of militant ISLAM against them: Propaganda, Marketing, PR. Support moderate and respected voices within their own culture. Assist those to reform from within. Just watching passively, hating, slandering them grosso modo is not a strategy with any chance of success."

Again, you didn't hear what I said. I never advocated standing by idly and passively. My contention is that we have to remove Islam and all Muslims from our society, force them back to the lands they came from, and let them know that we simply will not tolerate their barbarity, their treachery, their whining. Let Islam survive or die in its own land under its own people. If what you and others claim is true, if only 15% of them are violent, then this would force the moderates to detsroy the radicals, reform their religion, and become a civilzed people. If they cannot do that, they are not worthy to live among us. It's that simple. If they remain cowardly and silent, then the so-called radicals will continue to rule them, and there will be a Sunni-Shia genicide war, which is fine. Perhaps when they get tired of killing one another, they will eventually turn to reform and peace. But is it not our responsibility to do so. Let them go home and work it out.

If they try exporting their violence, we simply blow them off the face of the earth. Tough love. Reform Islam or we will simply eradicate Islam.

"Non taken – the Monster, as I really see it, is not ISLAM, but a subcategory, I call militant, fundamentalist, radical, terrorist ISLAM, openly and actively supported by all Muslims, including our own."

If that's what you believe, then you simply choose to ignore both the history and the actual teachings of Islam. And that is precisely the problem. Too few people are willing to look at history, current events, and the realities of that death cult, and tell it like it is.

"No – not more or less than our own. But – brutally macchiavellistic thinking, I am indeed in light of our self-preservation more interested in the present than in the past. Preventing and counter-acting present and future violence seems to me more important, than endlessly pointing at their violent past."

I agree, but I will again say that unless and until we acknowledge their dark history, which is a non-stop, 1,400 year history of violence, we simply will not understand what we are facing. We need to acknowledge in no uncertain terms that Islam at its very core is a violent death cult created by a violent man in order to unite a violent tribal people. We need to acknowledge that their culture is uncivilized and in drastic need of reform. We need to speak out, openly and loudly, and show how rancid and depraved all Islamic societies and countries are. We need to remove the mass psychosis called "multiculturalism" and admit that Islamic society is far inferior to American society, we need to denounce it, we need to declare it barbaric, we need to point out how corrupt and violent it is at its very core, and we need to insist on total reform. Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

"There is a fundamental difference between condoning or excusing and explaining or looking for the root cause.I solely try to find possible explanations, so perhaps solutions/strategies can be deducted in order to secure the quality of living we all enjoy for generations to come."

We know the root cause. Islam. There is no question about that. The problem is that few if any are willing to face reality and admit that. You need look no further than the Koran. The religion was founded by a barbaric rapist, murderer, pedophile who founded the religion in violent terms in order to unite a violent tribal people. They spread it in a violent manner. Their holy book and auxilliary writings all endorse terror. The very name "Islam" means "submission".

Seems to me that you're simply looking for a way to avoid dealing with reality. Looking for excuses and alternative answers to a question that we've already answered.

"As opposed to most angry responders here however, I do not consider ALL Muslims as fanatic, militant or terrorists."Neither do I. Certainly, some are peaceful. Some. However, anyone who thinks that "only" 10-15% are violent is delusional, in denial of reality. People who do not see that the so-called "moderates" are an even greater threat than the radicals are doomed to dhimmitude. Once again, look at the living conditions in ever state that becomes Islamic. When Islam comes to dominate Europe and then America, they will try to turn us into the same dark ages hellhole that all Islamic countries are. We cannot afford the dangerous, delusional belief that somehow America will be the first exception to the rule. Too much is at stake for such a blind and idiotic mistake.

"Until thousands of domestic Muslims march the streets of America chanting anti –American slogans, as they would be entitled to by our Right of free speech, I am not ready to accept the notion that these aforementioned people represent a minority within our domestic Muslim community."

Again, you still have not explained their actions nor have you answered any of my challenges to explain them as yet. I'm still waiting.

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