Mo, you need to start dealing with reality!

Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Jan 14, 2007 at 02:45

Mo, if you hope to have any sort of meaningful conversation with the rest of us, you simply have to start acknowledging reality as it exists.

To start, you said:

"Firstly Iran is an Islamic State to the Shia, and not to the Sunni Muslims."

Yes, Iran is Shia, not Sunni. It is still an Islamic state dominated by Sharia law. That's an indisputable fact.

"Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic State, it is a Saudi state, the kingdom of Saudi Arabia."

Once again, start acknowledging reality. Here are some quotes and a link:
___________

The Basic Law of Government adopted in 1992 declared that Saudi Arabia is a monarchy ruled by the sons and grandsons of the first king, Abd Al Aziz Al Saud, and that the Quran is the constitution of the country, which is governed on the basis of Islamic law (Sharia).

Legislation is by resolution of the Council of Ministers, ratified by royal decree, and must be compatible with the Shari'a.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia
___________

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state. End of argument.

Next, you said:

"I think you're not wrong there, but a country that professes Islam in its legal and its constitution will be an Islamic "state," only in a minor sense, if you know what I mean, but a pure Islamic state would encompass all Muslims within its borders."

In other words, a world-wide caliphate under Shaira. Why not just admit to it? Why are you afraid to plainly speak your goals?

"The Coptic Christians were not slaughtered the way you so vehemently claim, if you do your research there were very few people that resisted Amir Bin Al Aas when he and his 8000 strong army took control of the nation, those who did not were allowed to live, please give me relevant articles or links to your claims."

Islam's entire history is one of slaughter, forced conversion, rape. Pick up any reputable history book.

"You claims about thousands of years of knowledge destroyed, I would have you know that it was under the Muslim rule of Harun Rashid during the initial Abbasids reign that resulted in much of these manuscripts translated into Arabic so to be understood and advanced upon. The ruler employed many Coptic Christians who were familiar to the language and culture at the time. So I would say your arguments on this matter are void, again."

Mo, you need to learn that the simple act of disagreeing with me does not "void" my argument. My argument is un-voidable because it is historical fact. The Muslims did indeed burn the libraries at Alexandria and throughout India, which caused mankind to lose irreplaceable knowledge. The Ayurvedic system of medicine is still not complete, due to the barbarity of the Muslims who burned their scrolls and books and tried to steal Ayurvedic medicine by bastardizing it and renaming it Arabic Unanni medicine.

"You do not seem to understand that my reference to America and its foreign policies in relation to the Islamic "fundamentalism" that exist today is and can only be understood in modern times, rational don't you think.'

If that's the case, then all we need do is turn our eyes to the Middle East and see all the misery that Islam brings in every single place where it exists. Nowhere on this planet...nowhere!...do Muslims co-exist peacefully with non-Muslims. And we must indeed acknowledge the violently expansive history of Islam.

"Your reference to "Jihad" as a subjection of brutality is very shallow to say the least. "

On the contrary, it is not a shallow reference, it is an unflinching acknowledgement of reality, of how Muslims interpret jihad today in every country that contains Muslims.

"Jihad (offensive and defence; militarily speaking, not that of the internal, inner purification) cannot be used to kill the innocent, nor can it be used to merely accumulate worldly gains like spoils and the like thereof."

Sigh. Here we go!

The spoils of war belong to Allah and his messenger. Qur'an 8:12

It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land. Qur'an 8:68

Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes. Qur'an 8:12

They will ask the about the spoils. Say 'The spoils are God's and the Apostle's; fear god and settle it amongst yourselves; obey God and the Apostle if ye do believe." Qur'an 8:1

We can of course run in circles on this. The fact is that Muslims today use the Koran, Hadith, and Sunna to justify their terrorism every day.

What you Muslims always neglect to mention is that the later, violent verses of Mohammed written in the Medinan period superced and abrogate the earlier, more peaceful verses from the Meccan period.

So the earlier Meccan verses that say:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion." Surah 2: 256
"And have patience with what they (opponents) say, and leave them with noble (dignity)." Surah 73:10

Are invalidated, subrogated, and superceded by the later, Medinan period verse:

"Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war.)" Surah 9:5

"Fight (kill) those who believe not in Allah, nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Surah 9:29

"Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior." Surah 9:29

Unfortunately for Muslims, there are those of us who know the truth ...and who are not afraid to speak the truth.

Next, you wrote:

"You refer to Muslims killing Christians in Sudan; that may be the case, but it is not something Islam endorses."

There is no "may" about it. That is the case. Muslims are committing genocide in Sudan against anyone who refuses to submit to Islam. That is reality. End of argument. And it certainly is endorsed by Islam, as quoted in the Koran:

"Fight (kill) those who believe not in Allah, nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Surah 9:29

"I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah."
Al Bukhari vol. 4:196

You claim:

"Muslims and Christians lived peacefully in many places under Islam and there are plenty of examples for this"

Show me anywhere on earth where this is true. In Israel, the Muslims are committing terror against the Jews. In Sudan, the Muslims are committing terror against the Christians. In India, the Muslims are committing terror against the Hindus. In Thailand, the Muslims are committing terror against the Buddhists. No matter where you find Muslims, they are engaging in acts of war (jihad) against someone.

Next, you persist in being in denial of reality, and cannot even accurately quote me. You said:

"I think you have gotten your facts wrong on this one, there are close to 2 billion Muslims worldwide. And I said "close to" meaning a figure that is near to the figure "2 billion" although I should say the figure is closer to that which you gave "1.7 billion" is near enough."

I never gave a figure of 1.7 billion. I clearly said 0.7 to 1.2 billion.Your claim contradicts all reliable sources...

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Christians - 2.1 billion
Muslims - 1.3 billion

Other sources:

0.700 billion or more, Barnes & Noble Encyclopedia
0.817 billion, The Universal Almanac
0.951 billion, The Cambridge Factfinder
1.100 billion, The World Almanac
1.200 billion, CAIR (Council on American-Islamic relations)
1.200 billion, Britianica.com (2006)
1.308 billion, Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year 2006

Even CAIR, the largest propaganda house for Islam in America, admits to only 1.2 billion worldwide.

"Finally, your ideal world calls for the total eradication of Islam, its followers, its sympathisers. I call that terrorism."

I call it self-defense. If Muslims refuse to reform and civilize their religion, if they continue to justify, condone, permit, and committ violence due to the demands of their religion (as they are doing and have always done), then they must be destroyed. The civilized world has no sane reason to tolerate such barbarity. A surgeon does not cry for the cancerous cells of the tumor he excises in order to save the patient.

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