relativism again? here's FACTS

Submitted by susan (Italy), Jan 15, 2007 at 17:28

"You can not have it both ways, Susan. You can not mount evidence to declare ISLAM as the fundamental enemy, willing to pursue the non-militant (as Noah calls it, migratory attack) plus at the same time be networked with the militant fundamentalist ISLAM with its anarchic, terrorist objectives, then simply dismiss the argument of inexistence of such attacks."

yes it is possible. I never denied that there are different voices in the islamic world, none of which peaceful or tolerant, all bound on establishing islamic caliphate on the world, just with different means. A more outspoken view of the terrorists, wishing to prove their masculinity, and a less evident view, the breeding, demographically oriented one.

This is the very mindset of the sleeper cell, waiting til it's the right time. Basically what their prophet has been doing when the muslims weren't able to take on the other tribes or to respond militarily. Take time, wait til you increase fornitures and strenghts and attack.

This is to be found typically in the mindset of the people who realize they are cronically inferior in everything, financially, military, etc. They always have a B PLAN. Demographics.

Not only both of them are aiming to the same goal, but when the time will come, the ones that seems to you "indifferent" or "moderate", won't move a finger to defend the last piece of freedom remained. There won't be any Shindler's List the muslim way. They will join with the "tiny minority of extremists" that will rule.

As I told you their moral values until they reject them completely with conversion to another religion are god-given, they don't have such a thing like free conscience. They don't think "I don't kill a man because human decency told me so, but because my god told me so" and if you consider their god tells them to kill in abundance.

I make you a clear example. In my country, just recently there was a brutal murder. This muslim guy (former drug pusher, formerly in jail but I digress) had a child with a white, western, wealthy and christian woman. The oddest couple. While they were together she never converted to islam or acted islamic, no veil no nothing.

While the muslim guy was away, she was murdered together with the child for futile reasons by the neighbourhood. Nowadays the father wants to bury the girlfriend and child in tunisia, islamic way, because according to him "she had converted".

The father of the late girl said he didn't know anything about this conversion, good chances are that she never converted, but he's pretending they did, to let them become part of the ummah, even when dead. Pass it for the child, since for them the children are always muslim, but why taking away the grave of the woman, 2000 km from the mourning father?

The murder has been gruesome and that's what's keeping it on the news, so nobody else is paying attention to the little detail. But pretending she converted in some misterious hidden way it's exactly what the muslims wants us to believe. To increase their neverending ummah and spread their power.

They are not only counting on the people alive, but to the dead also. Anybody is doing his part, they all are thinking about the same goal, but to be reached in different ways.

Think about it. Have you ever read that a muslim was praising sincerely something west-made? Reinassiance, Enlightment, Art, Culture, Literature.

I have never seen muslim people attending our MANY artistic places, historical places, art classes etc (I am in Italy), you see any other kind of people, asians from Korea, China etc, south americans etc, NEVER muslims. They cannot see the beauty of Venus by Botticelli, they just see a dirty, naked, western kaffir. Therefore what makes you think that hypotetically they will "keep us" since they think they don't need us at any level not even for art, culture. Once they are the majority, they will restrict us to the point that we will become extinct.

We are talking about people who thinks themselves superior. Look around you. Everywhere it's common to find people that criticize heavily our church, our past, our colonialism, our ways, our decandent culture, materialistically oriented etc. We are forced to do that because of school indoctrination, but we are also doing it because we have some sort of objectivity.

Talk to a muslim, he will tell you that the muslim world is PERFECT, no matter how many people die of starvation, honor killing, terrorism, unjustice etc.

This is simply NOT normal. Just a narcissistic complexed person thinks that way.

Read this observation on the arab/muslim culture.

http://rantsand.blogspot.com/2006/09/observations-on-arabs.html

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Without honorable work, romantic love or any accomplishments not overshadowed by those the West, their sense of self-worth comes from being the possessors of the One True Religion. And Allah doesn't seem to be delivering on his promises of being exalted above the unbelievers these days.

On the plus side, they are willing to spare you and absorb you into their community as a respected member if you convert to the One True Religion. The Brotherhood of Believers is a reality in the lands of Islam, and while it sometimes falls short of the ideal (as does our democratic ideal) it is a reality, and in its way admirable.

The very concept of "maintenance" is foreign to them. This is what drives the foreign instructors in the Gulf absolutely mad. The per capita richest countries in the world resemble Eastern Europe or Latin America in the tackiness and run-down appearance of the buildings and streets. An electronics technician new to the Kingdom once told me how his first job was to inspect a junction box in the desert. He had to pry it open with a crowbar as it had evidently not been opened since it had been installed several years earlier.

This is expressed in the inshallah philosophy, "If God wills it." A Palestinian friend of mine explained to me that even the weather forecaster will qualify his prediction, "It will rain tomorrow. Inshallah." Or, "I will meet you tomorrow, inshallah." (But God understands that I am a very unreliable person.)

I remember giving a pep talk to my students before a crucial exam, "You are all going to pass the exam, right?" "Inshallah teacher." "No, no!" I shouted, "No inshallah. Study!"

In the West, and America more than anyplace else, we have internalized the notion that everyone has a right to their own opinion, and that said opinion is perfectly valid for them. When we meet a people who think that that idea is insane and evil, we are sometimes left in the absurd position of defending their idea as "perfectly valid for them". Doesn't work that way for them, God's Truth is laid out in some detail in the Koran, and not to believe it is a sin.

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See? everything is INSHALLA (God's will), they believe they are puppets in the hands of their god and their god promised them to rule the world. That's why on one hand some of them they might be into taking the west with force and another good portion just by INERTIA (demographics).

You have to put yourself into that mentality.

Also, unlike what you say, this is NOT absolutely the right time to strike. In their tribalistic mentality they are scared that a big guy (USA) will nuke them into sand. It's not that far fetched. Also they don't underestimate that Milosevich was stopped by pure coincidence, not because really anybody gave a damn about the muslims of Kosovo.

They failed big time even when numbers made them BOLD, like when they have been kicked back in Lepanto, POitiers and look what happened at the ottoman empire, it was huge and it feel into pieces in the hands of western powers.

So while on one hand they do violent acts in places like mindanao (philippines), pattani (thailand) where the west doesn't look. While on our much more evoluted lands, they keep a lower profile.

Evident Strikes will be absolutely counterproductive. We still have nukes, we still have the power to restrain them. Just think about that Russia made laws to forbid muslims from BUYING LANDS. It is a lot harder for muslims to build mosques in Moscow than in any other western cities. So they rightly think that if Russia can do it, the rest can do it.

They know us too well, they know that we could seriously restrain them.

To cut it short, muslims blab about they love peace, they want to live peacefully bla bla, but ask them if they consider you equal, with equal rights, equal capabilities. If they are sincere and they are not lying, they will tell you that they consider themselves superior and more deserving.

Do you think it will be easy to live with someone that thinks himself as superior? What will happen when they will be 51%?

This pathology is commonly seen also in people who always blame someone else for their problems. Have you noticed that when a muslim talks he never takes the blame for everything? I also read that some turks are convinced that they practice genocide on armenians because armenians attacked first! can you believe that? Armenians are 6 millions (including children, elders and women), the turkish army at that time was powerful. Can you believe that?

One last example. There is this boat

http://www.freivokh.com/page/clipp

is the most astonishing, bigger clipper boat ever made. It was build largerly in italy, and italy is the top builder of mega luxury yachts, even if this specific one is not a yacht, anyway, there was a slight turks partecipation to do something minimal, yet you see on turkish sites they CLAIM the BOAT WAS MADE IN TURKEY.

They take pride in powerful/beautiful things that others do!!!

"Albeit – putting Turkey with at least grassroots tendencies towards a modern democracy into the same category with medieval middle-eastern countries is neither constructive nor appreciates any reality."

I wonder, why milosevich was severely restrained when he talked of the GREAT SERBIA, why hitler was severely restrained when he talked of aryan race, and ataturk was NEVER RESTRAINED even VERBALLY when he did the VERY SAME THINGS?

Why do we have to say Cortez was a bloodlusting criminal that he is a very FAR person from our times while they have to praise ataturk as a semi god?

Look, ataturk was something worse than the italian dictator mussolini (Mussolini never practice genocide and never talked so clearly of the superior italian race) but while mussolini was brutally murdered and considered the second worse european personality after Hitler, Ataturk is a SEMI-GOD, the attachment of the turks to this genocidal is very close to they insane love for the pedo-prophet.

If you insult ataturk in turkey you take your life at great risk, if you insult mussolini or hitler I bet people are patting you on the shoulders.

This is simply NOT right.

Turks are getting away with genocide or the armenians, are getting away on the Cyprus matter, they are simply getting away with too many stuff. That enbolds them and makes even more arrogant than they are.

This is NEGATIVE. Muslims are arrogant by nature.

"As far as your migratory attack is concerned, I state again, that the civilized world is master of their own destiny here. I offered many feasible approaches and even templates, how this concern could be addressed. We do not need waiting in paralysis, until most European Countries have a Muslim majority. We have decades of time to look inwards and address the so often here admitted western decadency. ( Just one simplistic expression, I chose to envelope and somewhat consolidate an overall state of affairs : cultural, moral, attitude, mentality, structural, political)"

The west don't need to over-breed. It's a fact that the richest countries are the ones less populated, Denmark, Finland. Few population of course means that everybody stays better. As for paying elders pensions there are thousands other ways to resolve the problem than wild immigration and force western women to breed.

Families with fewer children are not a decadent sign of times by any means. It just means that the children are well taken care of, more educated. Statistics talk. If we were THAT desperate, just invite some of the sad chinese familes forced to abort or just take the philippinos or other christian countries that are still making more babies, like south americans. No need to suicide with the muslims.

There is no need to increase western demographics. We have an average of 1.2-1.4, let's just take it to 1.6-1.8. We don't need to reach 3.5-4.

Overpopulation is not the answer.

"Let us for a second assume, that the Netherlands will in 20 years (most pessimistic estimate I have seen) have the Muslim Majority. Let's for the sake of the argument assume that these voters will influence the local legislature to implement Sharia as law.

How do you think the rest of the Civ, will react to that? They'll stand by passively, while criminals get beheaded or stoned in Rotterdam? Think about it, Susan and see the surrealism of your hypothesis.
We A R E in command of our own destiny here with many constructive, pragmatic strategies and means available to us."

it is not surreal.

I remind you that in the netherlands it was legalized a party that promoted love relationship with minors. THe party democratically presented its manifesto, was admitted to elections.

Multiple positions taken by the PNVD have been controversial, especially those concerning children.[7] In a May 2006 opinion poll, 82% of respondents wanted the Dutch government to stop the party from competing in the elections.[8] The anti-pedophile foundation "Soelaas"[9] petitioned the courts to ban the party, but the judges ruled in the PNVD's favour.[10] "The freedom of expression, the freedom of assembly and the freedom of association ... should be seen as the foundations of the democratic rule of law and the PNVD is also entitled to these freedoms," the court said in a statement.

Something as absurd as pedo-parties can democratically express themselves and even risk to present themselves at elections. Why not sharia?

It's pointless that I remind you that Hitler and Mussolini were voted democratically.

What about places where sharia law is NOT VOTED, but christians are DHIMMI BY FACT? like lebanon?

Once you establish that democracy rule, the majority decides over the minority.

northern cyprus shouldn't even exist, yet NOBODY does anything, nobody cares, the christian churches in the north are falling to pieces. It is happening right before our eyes, but we prefer not to notice. Everything else is more important. Same thing will happen with parts of sharia law implemented in the netherlands.

UK cannot outlaw forced marriages, cannot outlaw muslim halal food, cannot outlaw, cannot outlaw poligamy that is widely practiced because the muslims associations are taking them literally by the balls for fear to be called racists. You don't call that "slow implementation of little parts of sharia"?

We have enormous difficulties in banning the burqa which is outrageously against the law! try to walk around with a mask, you are stopped and questioned. Burqad women can still walk freely in many eu countries. There is a specific law in italy that's 70 years old that forbids going around masked but the muslim women are getting a free pass not to hurt their sensibilities!!!

And you say sharia is a mirage!

"That is once again simply a (sorry) dumb statement. Terror organizations of drastically more limited extent ( Red Brigades in Italy, Bader Meinhof in Germany, IRA, ETA in Basque Spain and so many more have been able to almost destabilize entire Western Countries."

none of the above has got muslim mentality. None of those used suicide bombings. The political terror of those examples is a totally different matter. It is so limited it can easily be controlled and dismissed.

"Why wait until a majority of people "wakes up and assumes your viewpoints". Why wait, until we all realize this threat and start the incredible machine we have available to us? Tactically and strategically with a sheer terrorist scope in mind, the moment was yesterday to destabilize the western World and not wait, until the rest of the passive Western CIV assumes a patriot act type of legislature."

no, the less they are the quickest they can be deported! Once they will be 40-60 millions in USA nobody could deport them.

""The war on terrorism" has already to an extent unified the western world, including strange allies such as Russia and China. Now is the time for them, Susan, not later. As military leader of the global Muslim army you so adamantly want to see, I'd start that war immediately with a low tech, soft target tactic. 100 Terrorists/ country only, sniping randomly selected civilians, would break us within months, as I have tried to outline in another posts."

russia and china is not allied with the west, they are standalone players also because their ways of dealing with the problems are very un-western and so effective.

And NO NO NO, doing your tactic would call for the eternal ban of the islamic religion, that will totally jeopardise their PLAN B.

why you have to destroy PLAN B while you can effectively bring forward PLAN A and PLAN B in different ways? so when the first fails, you have the second.

"IF YOU WERE RIGHT, WE WOULD HAVE ALREADY SEEN DESTABILIZATION, DESTRUCTION, EROSION OF LIBERTY AND CHAOS OF AN UNHEARD SCALE.
Why does this truth not penetrate with you guys?"

because it's not the truth, it's you failing to understand the muslim brain.

See a drop of water dropping on a rock, it will make a hole sooner than incredible hulk with a hammer.

"Yep – France with a serious "migratory attack" from Africa and Algeria mainly, has a powder keg to deal with. (I am 50% of French origin by the way) We have indeed recently seen social unrest there like never before. The majority of it however was homegrown ( farmers, students). The problems in their ghettos of minority communities ( e.g Marseilles) are even more grave as in major cities in the US, because of a much wider socio-demographic, economical gap. I do foresee hence a significantly higher potential for Islamic founded unrest in the near future.

France also manifests a significant higher level of "appeasement", due to erosion of their own enforcement forces and fear of their own Minorities, which is historically not going to work. But once again – as one possible explanation ( not excuse) these people turn to fanatism and religion because of purely economical reasons and France as we as a whole would have many means and ways for a successful assimilation strategy, counteracting this. Alas - mes amis n'ont pas de courage et volonte."

err, and what's the difference between france and holland?. Cut it with the economic reason factor. As pointed out millions of times, it's better to be a little poor in france where the social state takes care of you, than to be poor in egypt where you have no social state and you are in a 3rd world country.

France has got cambodian immigrants too having been colonial power in former indochina, yet you don't see peaceful buddist cambodians shouting "buddah is great" when they set a car on fire.

"The majority of it however was homegrown ( farmers, students). "

oh so you admit it was not bad muslims imported, but BORN AND RAISED AND ALREADY IN THE WEST.

"Sorry – another bit of baloney. Currently the highest number of jailed within the last decade throughout Central Europe comes from the former Jugoslavia with a big chunk of Albanians controlling the drug trade. The highest percentage of jailed in the US are blacks and Hispanics to a vast majority originating from these mentioned poverty stricken ghettos. "

I was talking about europe. Of course we have more maghrebins than the USA and USA has got more mexicans than us, that's a NO BRAINER.

I am telling you north Italy (just read stats today), 70% ppl in jail are maghrebins (MUSLIMS). Same data from Denmark. Albanians are 70% muslims. Former yugoslavia splitted in Slovenia (the richest part of the former yugoslavia, produces no criminals), Croatia is rich thanks to turism, Serbia is rising its head, again produces not so much criminality. The criminals are either bosniaks (MUSLIMS) or albanians (MUSLIMS).

Romanians are a problem, yet how can you be scared of a people of 22 million people? they might be poor and ignorant but it's nothing like the poor and ignorant of morocco, algeria, egypt, compare the numbers.

I once read the stats. Muslims in italy are 1-1.5% yet they are in the most concentrated areas 70% in prison. Romanians are according to stats around that number too 1%, but they are NOT 70% in prison.

"The highest percentage of jailed in the US are blacks and Hispanics to a vast majority originating from these mentioned poverty stricken ghettos. "

aren't in the usa the blacks the most converted to islam? anyway, christian blacks and hispanics at least don't proselitize in jail like the muslims do.

"Across the western world the common criminal and not the religious fanatic makes up the highest percentage of imprisoned. "

that's because their abuse of our legal system hasn't been properly punished. When they call us apes and pigs and call for holocaust on us and another 9-11 they should be taken like nazi delirium and sent to jail.

You cannot dismiss my numbers about europe. You are lucky, north africans and pakistanis are closer to europe than to USA. The reason is merely this. And eu has a welcoming nanny state.

"Well, I happen to just read about, how Constantin "implemented" Christianity throughout the Roman Empire. Arguing admittedly in a cynical manner from the viewpoint of the original "Romans" worshipping Jupiter and the likes, I could easily call your "conversion" genocide or bloody oppression. Christianity developed evidently within the Roman Empire from a secret, oppressed "infiltrating" society to state religion. (BBC - Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire)

I quite actually would love to use this bit of historical reference to argue the point that oppressing a religion or culture is in the long run contra-productive. After all Christianity took over the western world, right? and Jupiter 's followers got wiped out, converted, missionarized - choose any expression you like - in the process."

no matter what you try to say about it. Nowadays no person would be ostacized, banned or killed for being pagan. Throughout the muslim history you are ostracised, banned or killed for being non muslim.

Not only that, nowadays you are free to convert FROM christianity, in islam it was NEVER possible as today.

no matter how you put it but christianity no matter how it started, it had the seeds of tolerance. Right now, I can easily go back idolizing jupiter. I can do it thanks to christianity. No previous religion is allowed in islamic paradises.

You are not able to dismiss this fact. Christianity had the seeds of tolerance, no matter how it was misused for political reasons. Islam has the seeds of inequality, suprematism.

"I quite actually would love to use this bit of historical reference to argue the point that oppressing a religion or culture is in the long run contra-productive. After all Christianity took over the western world, right? "

there is no christian country. Every christian sect recognizes widely separation church and state, even the most fervent evangelicals, or fanatics.

"and Jupiter 's followers got wiped out, converted, missionarized - choose any expression you like - in the process."

there are followers of animist religion or pagan religions nowadays, muslims are successfully eradicating all other religions from all their lands

probably that sort of paganism is out of fashion (jupiter) but you cannot say that christianity successfully eradicated other paganism such as hinduism, although islam tried with more success.

"What is proper retaliation, Susan? How to you retaliate against a guerilla style movement? Agent Orange for all, Carpet bombing? Been there - done that and lost. Once again, you're way too simplistic, one-dimensional suggestions would solely further the development of the Monster you so warn against."

why we bombed dresda knowing that there were peaceful germans that had nothing to do with the nazis? why we dropped hiroshima when we knew that there were peaceful japaneses?

same here. proper reitaliation could be nuclear sites in iran, or pakistan or if you want to go to the root problem mecca and medina. Once established ISLAM is the problem, not few muslims.

Just think about this simple fact, if muslim countries were free to accept other religions they would convert EN MASSE because muslim religion gives too many restrictions to art, literature, satire, experience good thing in life (i just heard a imam in italy saying it's nor right for a muslim to touch a kaffir because it's impure).

"According to the above, therefore it is the immigration, non-militant arm of the Muslim movement you fear? "

exactly, as I explained to you they have PLAN A (terrorism and violence) and PLAN B (infiltrating society and erosing it bit by bit with demographics). I fear more plan B. As I fear more a million bees more than a lion.

Chances that I am on a train during a terrorist attack are a few, chances that my grand daughters are dealing with aspects of sharia law in a muslim majority country are many more.

"Then I ask you, are we hence not masters of our own destiny here, as we would have a ton of time and many tactical ( economical, political, cultural and military) means at our disposal to counteract that."

lack of will. What we do with nazi associations preaching anti semitism? JAIL

What we do with muslims doing the same stuff in their mosques? NOTHING

Why?

because the nazis are reasonable people like us and cannot call for RACISM

Muslims call for racism. Nowaydays we are that weak that someone calling us "racist" is the worst offence ever.

That's why we turn our back to the problem. Also because we feel we have to keep the moral higher ground and not behave like them (which is wrong, we should behave exactly like them) and so many other stockholm diseases factors and inner guilt. And ignorance, the majority is still fooled that "they are like us".

Those are the reasons why we are not doing much.

"You warn continuously about their radical, militant intentions, and, when I prove to you that there is no evidence for this large scale homegrown terrorism, you go back to solely the migratory attack and a long term strategy they pursue to take us over – make up your mind please, and stick to it."

they use both plans, we can argue till death on numbers, yuo say 20% terrorists and 80% peaceful outnumbering us. I merely say 50% - 50%, but the thing is 50% is doing terrorism, 100% are busy outbreeding. You can do both, they are not exclusive.

"Timothy McVeigh was according to all media with a shredd of legitmacy , a homegrown right wing supremacist with a grudge against our domestic administration"

so why you call him a "christian terrorist"?

we do not call bin laden a muslim terrorist because he is muslim, but because he uses his koran to justify his acts. Do you have evidence that Mcvie used the bible and did it in the name of the christian god? also do you find christians authorities to be silent about this and not condemning it?

"Once again – you simplify dangerously: Pipes and the likes do not call for genocide, eradication, ban of ISLAM or mass scale deportation or oppression. They remain civilized and state the dangers as they see them. "

on Robert Spencer's site one of his collaborators calls for deportation, ban of islam. I don't read only PIpes. I fear that restriction of hate speech will only affect those people and not the muslims, as always, as the "don't go around masked" affects western people and not muslims.

It's obvious that we are not equal before the law, some people are more equal than others.

"Enforcement of the restrictions of Freedom of Speech is key and should apply equally to everybody.To make it simple for you: I do not care, if anyone calls me a pig ( in his private home) , yet draw the line, when he takes out an advert in a news paper, to do so, or calls publicly for violence against me."

Mosque in Italy, journalists there, the imams said christians are dirty beasts in front of muslims who didn't move a finger. Nothing happened. WE ARE NOT EQUAL BEFORE THE LAW ALREADY.

"It is N O T true that Muslims get rejected. "

I didn't say ONLY muslims get rejected, possibly they rejected also many italians. I don't care, they are entitled to.

"It is a fact that citizenship has to be earned and can be obtained within 15 (not 30) years.
( here in the US I am going on my 15^th year of the process of naturalization too…..) hence the duration is not so much different in the US, or Italy for that matter."

no, most eu countries it takes 10 years. Our stupid leftist government made it 5 now.

"It is not true, that the Swiss are (called) Racist. ( with > 50% of second plus generation immigrants in the meantime, that would be suicidal). "

you are not aware of the voices around yuo, by the way , i don't consider racist to be an insult, while you just proved me that our immobility is due to how we are scared to be called racists.

It's a well know fact that the german swiss look down on french swiss that look down on italian swiss, but it's all good. Every country is like that and only hipocriticals and politically correct idiots deny it.

Also, immigrants from italy (but I could tell you many other places too) referred to the treatment given to them as that, we always joke that the italian swiss call us italians 3rd worlders. But we are not offended, we just understand and WE AGREE.

I once went to Zurich in 2004 and saw posters of a politician openly saying "we oppose immigrants", that's why admire this courage to be "racists" which as I told you, is not an offence, but it's telling it like it is.

"Switzerland has just recently via bilateral negotiations opened wide to EU immigration and by majority vote accepted that any EU citizen can buy a home or move to the country. So much for their conservative, racist ways....:)"

probably it was forced because the EU is posing import tax on products coming from switzerland, so you have to give up a bit. Our most famous millionaire Berlusconi had to use a far relative to buy a house in switzerland, so I guess your law is VERY RECENT

"But their level of stability is unheard of in the western world with original inhabitants by now being a minority in the overall fabric of the country."

native swiss still have the power and the number is controlled, that alone is a strange fact in EU. No other country is so small, rich and controlled.

"In a nut shell, Switzerland is one great example for peaceful co-existence of pretty much any subculture there is – in close quarters, I might add. Instead of labeling them or one individual culture as Racist, how about examining and exploring, why they are so successful in that integration effort?"

Allow any other country to refuse locally muslims and nobody would have a problem with muslims anymore. Switzerland kicks out anybody that they don't like, you cannot expect the other countries to be that happy with muslims if you don't grant them the same luxury. Your immigrants are cherry picked. Something that's a dream for other countries.

"Why not adapt this proven, solid concept, as far as democracy and its liberties vs immigration is concerned? "

model cannot be applied. The country is small, rich, heavily controlled because it's small with no sea. No other country except austria share the same luxury.

"A solid military and defense force, a willingness to enforce a tighter legislature, yet lack of any "oppression while clamping down with a vengeance on any domestic fanatic group has led to respect worldwide with a huge majority of people never daring to call this little country anything -but democratic. Apart from the fact that coming from you, the racist label would be a joke."

switzerland hosts the family of Bin Laden and probably much of his money, I wouldn't call that something to be proud of.

http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/celebrities/fa.ca.8.html

only switzerland is able to pride itself to have had "despots" in their lands.

I said already that in this stupid politically correct world the word racist, when used to describe someone that protects universal values as freedom against barbarity and 7th century cult it's a compliment. And I used it in that sense.

"but as far as immigration and the multi cultural fabric is concerned, this template of an overall, integrated, multi-facetted approach to these cultures could be well a recipe for our approach to your so called migratory attack."

not appliable to other countries.

"Labelling ISLAM as one integrated evil force without distinction, which needs to be banned and deported and now all of a sudden everybody is equal? "

I say they have to take care of their problems THEMSELVSE. In that I consider them equally able, but they lack WILL TO DO IT. OK? That can perfectly STAND. They could have the capacity, but THEY DON'T WANT

You say they are too stupid to do it, adn we have to do it for them

"I advocate to use those means and as opposed to you first look inwards and find ways to strengthen our own position. (Sun Zsu - the art of war)"

Like the old Chinese proverb says 'If one sits on the bank of the river long enough they will see the body of their enemy floating by!

"I have never advocated to treat Muslims as mentally challenged, just the same, as we treat any other culture. "

it is already established we don't treat muslims as we treat any other culture. Japaneses have been deported and interned.

"We DID NOT leave the Japanese or Germans alone to clean up. For years with outright occupation and monitoring, democracies were grown, until they could stand on their own feet. We followed through with Japan and Germany to the very end, which would be required in IRAK today. "

with japan, germany and italy, USA did 1 tenth to have back 10 times more. Compared to iraq. Thousands of money efforts people into iraq to have back nothing.

"Lastly the treatment I offer as one of many possible strategies for Muslim countries which have a tiny chance to become eventually free democracies"

lebanon was a decent democracies until the muslims outbreed the christians. OOOPS my theories are proven right once again

"One last time - read my posts : I advocate total, utter, complete, color-blind, fundamentally equal treatment for any immigrants of any color or creed. Nothing more and nothing less. Enforced legislation. That alone however constitues from your slanted viewpoint a preferential treatment for Muslims? "

Chineses and russians have different day celebrations for new years eve, do you think their plea for days off school will be obeyed as quickly like the muslims festivity?

Read jihadwatch.org and see how muslims already snap their fingers and they have everything, from festivities to special treatments, to special prayer rooms at schools or workplaces AGAINST other religions. Example, christian kids are forbiddent to pray in a "secular" school while muslim kids are granted prayer rooms and prayer times. This happens in USA right now.

Would a mother of a vegetarian kid or people intolerant to bread/wheat/gluten foods have their food requirements heard? NO WAY. This is what happens in western tolerant, equality-full western lands.

But as soon as muslims say "halal food" they are served.

"Again you contradict yourself denying one culture of our social fabric the rights you so passionately want to defend. By doing that, you subvert and pervert exactly the achievements as a democracy, you always claim to protect "

I see everyday the rights of people being denied to please the muslims. You are too blind and too ignorant of news to realize it. We non-muslims are already discriminated. Democracy is not here anymore. I cannot defend what's not here anymore. A child intolerant to hazelnut that DIED at school because she couldn't notice there was hazelnut in a cake. Her mother warned the teachers but our nature is so willing to respect the freedom of others and not ask for the ban of hazelnut in the whole school. For the mother's respect, her child died. No muslim is restraining himself for asking for halal food and impose their ways on others. In the UK the whole school ordered halal food for ALL KIDS, knowing that non-muslim kids possibly didn't want to eat stuff killed the muslim ways.

In france a judge ordered a charity org not to serve PORK in the soup, not to offend muslims.

See? they are already controlling us, even in our way to do charity.

TO you must seem made up stories, yet they are true and happens every day.

Muslims are granted special permission because they don't want to use alcohol gel to clean their hands at hospitals. They can freely spread germs.

WE ARE ALREADY GRANTING SUPER-RIGHTS TO THEM for the fear to be called racists.

"1. I never proclaimed to be an expert on ISLAM. (You on the other hand sound like you claim to be)"

I am, you admitted you never read the koran, I had the stomach to do it

YOu obviously don't keep yourself updated on the many incredible stories on how muslims are manipulated our laws at their disposal

"2. I only reported of personal experiences like Noah. As opposed to him who had negative, mine were positive. His find of course your applause, while mine are not representative or "idiotic".
What's wrong with that picture ? ;-)"

NOah's personal experiences are MORE and MORE REAL. HAve you engaged to your friendly muslims with talks of jews and gays and women rights? I don't have any problems in talking with others about the crimes of the church or of my civilization or of the roman empire. Do you think they would start telling you about the "problems " of islam and/or islamic countries? I bet NO

"that makes you by definition exactly into what you so despise in the average Muslim you describe: a simple straightforward Racist."

told you already that the word of racist on me doesn't bother me at all. Thanks to my "racism" people will still be free to practice hinduism, paganism, buddism, etc, except intolerant religions.

Thanks to your non-racist islam we will be forced to convert, become dhimmi or die.

"When will you realize that you with your posts display the very precise qualities of what you so condemn in others? "

Before I knew of islam I didn't think anything about them. On the contrary, they always believed I am a dirty beast, since 7th century.

But you fail to see this simple difference.

"Your ramblings defy any teaching of Christianity or dogma of the free western world you permanently and passionately defend."

The teaching of christianity and western world are worth only if christianity and western world will still exists, if they are sent to dust, there will be nothing to defend.

"Highly ironic, how I try to see Christianity from a somewhat objective, critical, reflective, inwards looking viewpoint, yet funny enough end up, sounding much more like a true Christian than you, the defender of Christianity and the Free World."

sounding like a broken record and constantly reminding our faults to JUSTIFY THEIRS is not being a "true christian", it's only being a true stupid, a true relativist, a truly one with a guilty complex. the highest authority of the church apologised for the crimes of the church in official letter, even humiliated himself kissing the koran, yet muslims are still calling us dirty beasts.

"a fundamental self-loathing in the Western Society"

that's you in a nutshell. I don't have any guilty problem

"3. Working as a Westerner for an entire year with Muslims may not make me an expert, but certainly lends my perspective a bit more credibility, as far as any judgment is concerned, than the hate filled ramblings of an individual who gets his/her information solely from websites and history books."

working with them without touching the hot subject means nothing. Read the link I gave you about how this person described muslims. If you don't "hurt their sensibilities" everything is ok. Problem is that to most their sensibilities are hurt only because jews exists.

I deal with muslims too, it's just that my observation is limited to my working hours because I would never befrend any of them, I don't talk to who calls me dirty beast.

"Speaking of History : How many times have I heard " Read your history" . Years and dates may be congruent, dear tunnel-visioned friends, but the analysis is as multi-facetted, as there are cultures. Proof in point: Read about 20^th century history in a Swiss, Taiwanese or Chinese history book and you get three different stories. ( I spent also a year in Taiwan, by the way)"

ok relativism at its finest, history is all a fairy tale, why do we study it? It's all right or all wrong, it doesn't matter. SO when are you converting to the religion that gave more to human civilization, islam?

"While I ( individually and personally) certainly accept fundamental historical lessons as a fact, and suggest to draw common sense conclusions, I invite all of us to not commit the fundamental mistake of considering Judeo/Christian history as the only source for the ultimate truth and accept as fact of life that to a certain extent we too are "indoctrinated" in the purest definition of the word."

the source of islamic slaughtering and proof of that is ISLAMIC SOURCES. Do you doubt those too?

"For you - Susan - put into simple words – I can see a lot of black and white here, but no grey. But grey is - fact of life - the predominant color in any human relations. Time to put on the glasses, signora."

there were no moderate nazi, no grey.

"People like you with such surreal and horrific suggestions, have caused all horror of a past you so often reference."

too bad I have no past history of going against the law. same thing cannot be said for 70% of muslims in italian prisons.

"GOD help us, if ever again in our civilized world such a mentality becomes a majority force again. No matter, if it comes from ISLAM fundamentalism or any other movement."

don't thank us when we will possibly save you from eternal slavery , you already want it.

"Move from behind from the desk, enjoy your life and abandon your acrid bitterness, let humor in, dance, watch a good movie and get a good laugh."

still preparing for your islamic beloved future, humor, movies and laugh are banned.

"Yes sir mam boss, everything is relative, as there is no absolute, other than in mathematics. Dear - there is no black and white - there are only millions of shades of grey. Take a minute and let that penetrate. Ommmmmmhh"

still in your islamic beloved future hinduism won't exist anymore

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