You're still not listening

Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Jan 19, 2007 at 22:51

Michel, you wrote:

"A) I think we agree on the fact that I too would "dismiss" your strategy as " not gonna happen"."

I qualified that statement. Unless things change, no, it will not happen. People need to wake up. If they do, it is quite possible. I can also see scenarios where the military simple takes matters into its own hands, ie if Iran launches a nuke over the USA in order to generate an EMP to take out our electrical grid and computers.

" B) You and I want to help preserving the western culture, our way of life, our freedoms."

I can agree there.

"I am by simple logical deduction forced to deplore that as a form of defeatism."It's not called "defeatism", it's called "realism". It's being realistic by looking at reality and what is going on in the world. Do your research. Read your history. Get a book called Why Civilizations Fail. Our outcome is already written, unless we have a major change of spirit.

"You conclude and mount evidence to the fact that the way of life as we knew it, our democracies are doomed to fail and be eradicated sooner or later. You say, your warning will never be heard and the West is on its demise, while, as opposed to you, I am not willing to concede defeat quite yet. As opposed to you, I consider our society still as basically strong with feasible means at their disposal to counteract any threat so ever."

The difference is that you're not willing to deal with reality, and I am. Look at our society. Look at how emasculated, fearful, cowardly, and apathetic we've become. Look at how our society is decaying...teen mothers at the highest rate of any developed nation, record number of unmarried couples with kids, broken homes, illiteracy on the rise, obesity on the rise (along with many other diseases), stupidity and ignorance rampant. Most people care only about doing their 9 to 5 job, and then plopping their fat asses down in front of the boob tube for 4-5 hours a day in order to vegetate and become more indoctrinated by the liberal media while stuffing their faces with junk food that causes them to become diabetic, cancerous, and demented.

Our society fears speaking the truth. We use euphemisms for everything. People are no longer short, they're "vertically challenged". Teachers are being told not to use red pens to mark answers on tests wrong, because red is too "harsh" a color. The CIA gave the FBI a list of Al Qaeda sleeper cells here in the states, and the FBI refused to go after them because (and I quote): "they have not committed any crimes". In the UK, the United Kingdom's Teacher Training Agency told trainees to say "thought shower" instead of "brainstorm" in order to avoid offending epileptics. We recently allowed CAIR members to tour our airports, showing them detailed screening techniques and security measures. Teachers are being pushed to avoid using the word "failed" for students who fail a test. Instead, they want to call a failing score a "deferred success" because using the word "fail" may harm the student's psyche. Calling it a "deferred success" means they will eventually pass the test because they'll feel better about themselves. If you think I'm making this up, do the research, it's not a joke.

Our society is hardly strong. It is weak, flabby, flaccid, and tired.

"What is better,

a) simply accept the above as a fact, continue to mount evidence of evil nature, continue to warn, continue to hate and in essence accepting, that we are doomed and that your "strategy" will never succeed,

or

b) applying fresh approaches, lateral outside the box thinking and find solutions with at least a slither of a chance for implementation.?"

Neither. What is best is to work for change and try to implement my solution. Your approach has no chance for success because the enemy treats compromise as weakness. You simply refuse to comprehend this simple reality. What seems logical, sane, compassionate, fair, and feasible to us is laughed at by the enemy as weakness and decadence and only serves to further fuel their hatred of us. Until you come to that understanding, you will not be able to come up with a feasible solution.

" In my book people like him give me reason to hope."

Well you sit there and comfort yourself with false hope while the rest of us deal with reality then. That's what it really boils down to. Some of us are realist, some of us are fantasists.

" As opposed to you, I have yet to lose any remaining hope, even though the mountain of factual evidence could easily lead any logical pragmatic person to deep depression."

What it should do is lead any logical, pragmatic person to get off his duff and start doing something to change his society, not indulge in fantasy and denial of reality.

" We believe that our society is much stronger and resistant to any form of fanatics, than you give her credit for."

Explain then why we cater to minorities? Why do people in a free country quake in fear whenever a black person spews the word "racism"? Why are we afraid to take a stand against illegal aliens and sit quietly like frightened sheep when the illegal Mexicans take to the streets in protest, demanding illegal rights? Why is everyone in the government afraid to speak the truth about Islam, and in total denial of reality refer to it as the"religion of peace"? Show me where this mythological "strength" is dominant in our society.

"We believe in the fundamental superiority of a system, which is based upon democracy, freedom and free pursuit of one's individual happiness."

I argee that our system is superior to anything else, but that doesn't matter. The enemy loathes it and condemns it. We can't serve as an example, because they hate what we stand for.

" We will rigorously defend above, when we are threatened."

LOL! Really? You mean like right after 9/11 when Bush told everyone to "go shopping" and that was our society's response? Or do you mean like when tens of thousands of criminal aliens from Mexico stormed our streets and blocked traffic and interfered with business, and everyone just sat around and did nothing? Show me this rigorous courage you seem to want to believe in.

"We believe to have character and inner strength to allow to be measured and questioned and to question and measure ourselves. We do not give a sh…, what the other side does. We only intend to control, what we can control: ourselves and our reactions to any frame condition."

Then you're in denial of reality and unwilling to face a growing threat head-on. This New Age Kumbayah Singing Bliss Bunny Group Hug Philosophy is nonsense. The enemy does not care if we're "morally superior" in our own eyes or if we can question ourselves. They thrive on our constant questioning of ourselves. They hate us. Do you understand that? They hate us and everything we stand for.

"I, on the other hand, believe that some Willpower could in fact be regained for a much needed reform of our own "decadency " , as a basis for successful perseverance against any threat."You can believe that aliens built the pyramids, if you like. That doesn't make it reality. Again, where do you see this tremendous strength? How do you see it manifesting, when it doesn't seem to exist? Your theories seem credible only in Fantasyland.

"You believe ISLAM to be that one major all-encompassing threat.We believe aspects, shades of ISLAM to be one of many such threats."

Wrong. I believe Islam is one of the major threats we face, second only to our own apathy and refusal to acknowledge reality.

"You believe that we will fail, whereas I believe that we have at least a chance to survive."

Burying one's head in the sand is not considered an effective survival technique, just to let you know.

" Lastly, I see and understand our debate as proof for my view, whereas brutally logically deducted, you must see this debate as solely philosophical with no chance of any positive outcome."

What kind of alien logic is that? You're saying that I'm seeing the debate as philosophical? You're the one doing all the philosophizing. I'm talking about observable, provable reality.

"Highly ironic once again, our entire debate boils down to one key word: F A I T H."

No, it boils down to a word called "REALITY". Either you acknowledge reality or you live in denial of it. Faith has nothing to do with it. You can have all the faith you want that the so-called moderate Muslims will save you from the global jihad, but I can assure you, they will not be there to save you when the so-called radicals come to cut off your head. Reality shows this to be true.

"I started up with it and wIll conclude with it: If we lose faith in ourselves, our system, culture, our achievements and in brutal consequence in our future, we will lose hope, drive, energy and finally any sense of self. We will simply disappear as just another footnote in history. We'll fall apart and all the fight was for nothing."

What do you mean "if"? It's already happening, man! Wake up! Our society has already lost faith in its superiority. It has already lost its moral compass. It has already lost its hope, its drive, its energy, and its sense of self. And this is all being further diluted daily by illegal Mexicans, subversive Muslims, traitorous liberals, and space cadets in denial of reality. We are falling apart. And we can't fix it unless and until people wake out of their somnambulent trance, turn off the tv, and get a whiff of actual reality.

"I am not there yet, to accept that."

That's because you refuse to deal with reality. Your'e hiding from it. I don't know if its fear, apathy, ignorance, anger, or confusion that's causing it, but that's why you cannot accept it...because you don't want to acknowledge reality.

"Are you? Really? Again logically deducted, you promote most radical actions, yet state at the same time, that it will not happen, hence that we are doomed - - - - or defeated. You make a strong argument for all this yelling and stamping of your feet (warning) not having any effect and not going to have any either. Thus defeat being the only logical consequence. Do you see, where I am going with this logic?"

Yes, I see where you're going. It's called "denial". The simple reality is that our society is apathetic and decadent and unless it changes immediately, we are doomed. Once again, read your history.

"I do not feel that you are willing to accept our demise just yet. Your passion speaks for itself."Our demise is imminent unless we change. I am a realist above all else.

"Hence, my only suggestion remains to resolve the impasse, you and I, reps of a fundamentally different stream, must come together and find pragmatic compromise. "

Again, you fail to understand reality. There can be no "compromise". Your approach weakens us further, and only serves to incite the enemy to greater levels of atrocity. They do not respect civility...they respect barbarity. They do not respect negotiations...they respect combat. They do not respect compromise...they respect force.

I can never compromise with your position, because your position is a guaranteed prescription for national suicide.

"If you indeed want to help preserve our way of life (like me), we must assist in finding strategies with a chance for reality, even, if they do not go far enough for you. We both agree that No platform, a majority of people across creed, culture or gender can not buy in, will carry in our system."It's not a matter of "going far enough", it's a matter of doing what needs to be done instead of denying it. There can be no agreement between me and someone who sincerely believes, in stark denial of observable reality, that compromise, soft touch, New Age conflict resolution philosophy is going to save us. I cannot agree with someone who sincerely believes, in stark denial of observable reality, that the enemy will respect us if we are simply willing to criticize ourselves. I cannot agree with someone who repeatedly questions, in stark denial of observable reality, whether or not the facts of reality are true.

" Noah – to use the model of modern conflict resolution – we do not have a choice here."Yes, we do. We can either continue to indulge in this soul-sapping, fantasy-worshipping denial of reality, or we can wake up, change our society and deal with reality face on. The former leads to inevitable death, the latter to success and survival. That's just the way it is, and no amount of New Age philosophy, Bliss Bunny platitudes, Kumbayah singing, or conflict resolution seminar is going to change that fact of reality.

"If you in this "negotiation" effort can absolutely not get 100% of what you want, are you then willing to accept a "partial" victory, ? "

Michel, I have repeatedly told you - this is not a game. It is not a conflict resolution seminar in some Bliss Bunny New Age company. It is a matter of reality. Either we stop living in denial of reality and turn the tv off, or we die. It's that simple. No amount of "negotiation" will change that unalterable fact of reality.

"Walking away is conceding, that there is zero resolution. Sitting down (Just an analogy) m a y have a chance. Not more - not less. The first will bring about a doomsday scenario you so often describe.
So - what do we have to loose to entertain my second way? Nothing."On the contrary, I am not walking away from it at all. I am simply stating what the reality is. Your arguments amount to nothing other than false hope, wishful thinking, and reality denial. The enemy does not think like we do. It is a foreign way of life to ours, and vice versa. We do not share the same values, the same philosophy, the same goals, or the same desires. Go research tribal societies and perhaps you'll come to understand.

"Hatred, exclusion and fanatism has not led one single autocratic regime or system or culture to survive in the long run. It has precisely led to the demise of every single such empire in history. While the system of a true Democracy can not be seen as "Empire", it nevertheless will fail, if it makes the very same mistake. Every form of (violent) revolution had a tendency to bring back the exact same principles it originally tried to overthrow, is another historical sad fact so many experts have pointed out.The only exception: Democracy in its purest definition of the word"Democracy, in the purest form of the word, is rule by majority. It is not something to desire, and it is why the Founding Fathers created the USA not as a democracy, but rather as a Constitutional Republic. There is a world of difference, and I pray I do not have to explain that difference to you. And once again, we cannot afford to hope that Islam dies of old age, when in fact is it becoming more powerful by the day. You're putting your faith into fantasy, and it will lead to doom.

"To dismiss my position as naïve, cumbajah, mumbo jumbo and so on does not respect it as an effort with a lot of pragmatic reasoning and logical rationale.'

That's because your position is unrealistic, in denial of reality, and unworkable. You cling to beliefs that are invalidated by the light of reality in our world. That, by clinical definition, is called being delusional. You insist on believing in things that reality shows you are false. How can I respect such an opinion? It's madness!

"While I may never get more than an inch in factual concession from you guys, at least accept my position to have its own logic. I follow down a different causal chain than you – If you do not agree with me on anything, concede at least that."

I can't concede that your position has any logic whatsoever, because it is the result of delusion. What you call "logic" falls flat on its face when tested against the light of reality. For example, you believe that by questioning ourselves and criticizing ourselves and holding ourselves up as an example, it will inspire the enemy to change, when reality shows that this only causes them to despise and disrepect us moreso.

"I can not blame you for your emotions – but I am saddened by, where they take you."

It's not my emotions that take me to where I am. It is cold, hard analysis of reality, acknowledgement of historical precedence and current events, and courage to face the truth.

"Nothing I wrote, nothing I said, had any effect. No voices rose up en masse in support, even though I still feel that many readers were indeed silently nodding. It isn't good enough though to remain silent, as my voice will now fade too in admitted resignation."

Proof once again that your claims, your views, your beliefs, and your solutions simply do not hold up to the light of reality. The question now is...are you going to come around to admiting reality, or remain in denial of it, waiting until the day the jihadis come slice your head off, while praying for the mythical moderates to save you?

"To circle back to where we originally started from, Daniel Pipes did rightfully take a hard look at us passive self-loathing people – The voices of fanatism overpower the voices of moderation once again with the next tragedy around the corner. How many more can we afford as a species?"

The very fact that you can call voices like mine "fanatical" proves precisely what I have been saying all along. Mainly, that our society lives in stark denial of reality and is weak and ineffective. You want to remain in Fantasyland, in some New Age board room, singing Kumbayah and hoping against hope that the enemy will inexplicably and miraculously change his ways. And when those of us who actually live in reality present the truth, it confuses you, it offends you, it disturbs you, and you are forced to dismiss it as "fanaticism" simple because we refuse to play your suicidal mind games.

Reality, much like sunlight, is harsh, bright, penetrating, and quite painful to the eye for those who have been sitting in the dark. It hurts, at first, to open your eyes and allow them to adjust to the brilliance of reality. However, failure to do so means living in the darkness forever. The pain of stepping outside into the light is painful at first, but eventually quite refreshing and invigorating once you adjust to it.

"There you go – now I am depressed too."

I'm not depressed. Just amazed and appalled by the apathy and denial in our society. And adamant when it comes to dealing with reality.

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