To Mo face to face with reality

Ah but it could be because of the verse that exhorts Muslims not to engage in dispute about religion ( I can't remember the verse number)

You are a good listener and that encourages me. Thank you too.

Let me refer you to dhimmi no more's excellent post of Feb 2, 2007 on the meaning of "Yaa Ayyu Hannas" . I know no Arabic. I will go with dhimmi as all who have disputed with him on Arabic have fallen by the wayside. You are only making assertions without any solid evidence from the Koran. I quoted verses that clearly indicate it is meant only for the Arabs and not any Arabs, but Arabs who live around the Mother of Cities, Mecca. You are twisting and turning to fit the verses to meet your expectations. Time and again dhimmi no more and I have shown that just does not wash. Before we continue this argument I suggest you refute dhimmi no more.

That is strange logic and rationality indeed. Allah sends a Prophet to a people who constitute a very small minority of mankind. He wants the rest of mankind to learn Arabic to understand Him or be at the mercy of some scholar's translation. That Allah's logic and rationality are pretty poor is demonstrated by the fact that those who understand the Koran can be easily counted using the Roman numerals. Looking at the differences in translations and tafsirs how many real Muslims exist. Allah alone knows? Very few for sure. Also think about it, most Muslims practice its rituals of five daily prayers in a language they do not know.

That was news to me. Allah has condemned even his chosen people to not being able to fully understand his teachings unless they take lessons in classical Arabic. You are contradicting the Koran Mo.The Koran always said it is easy to understand, never has it talked of it being complex, only about once it says there are some verses which are allegorical.

Let us use logic again. First you yourself said even the Arabs have to learn classical Arabic and that the Koran is also complex. Now how many tafsirs are in existence. How many translations are in existence and which are always disputed for some reason or other as not being the true meaning of the Koran. Why are they there if the Koran is easily comprehended. The very existence of numerous translations and so many tafsirs argues for the incomprehensibilty of the Koran to not only Arabic speakers but especially to non-Arabs. Simple human logic (not Allah's) will tell who is making the false statement.

Some more equivocation. The vast majority of Muslims are struggling to make ends meet. What interest would you say they have to gain a good grasp of classical Arabic. Use logic my dear Mo.

Really funny that. My statement says: "Language, one of the most important markers of one's cultural identity, has been relegated to second class status because of Islam. And regretfully you seem happy and proud about it. Your religion makes you think that the Arabs are a cut above the rest because Allah has chosen them above other nations, and so you slavishly imitate their manners and customs even though the religion does not require you to, hoping perhaps then Allah will treat you on a par with them.

Like Indians of old trying to be more English than the English." I am not saying that Islam demands everyone should become classical Arabic scholars. What that above passage is saying is because of your belief in Islam and because Islam has made the Arabs into a chosen people, sadly those who believe in this religion go about imitating as much of the Arab culture as they possibly can. Just trying to curry favour with your Lord by trying to be as Arab as possible.? Read one of your old posts where you wax eloquently about the Arabic which language of which your knowledge is limited as you yourself admitted. What is amusing AND SAD are all those make-believe Arabs in Asia and Africa and elsewhere salaaming, inshallahing and trying out some broken Arabic amongst each other hoping for Allah's blessings. And sadder still taking pride in Arab achievments and heroes and looking down on their own forefathers achievements as that of jahilya.

Let us look at this Sunnah thing. Do only the personal habits of the Prophet qualify as sunnah? He had this consistent habit of assassinating his critics be they doddering old men or a lactating woman. Muslims follow it with zeal even now. Farag Foda, Theo van Gogh to name just two. Mo, tell me do you approve of this personal habit of the Prophet. You did approve of his mutilating the robbers who killed his camel herder.

Not much hope as long as you insist that it is the unchangeable, uncreated (created to some) word of Allah. And your insistence on scholars to interpret the verses directly contradicts the Koran's claim to be an easy book to understand. Now you tell me that even the poor Arabs have to depend on scholars of classical Arabic to comprehend the Koran.

I really like that. Allah should have said "This religion is for Arabs and non-Arabs" and there would not have been all this verbiage we are indulging in. Can you tell me why the Koran instead of addressing believers, people, man etc does not have an unambiguous statement like the one I wrote.

What was your aim in quoting all those verses? Allah is God and so is for all mankind as the verses indicate. Unless you say that the God of the Arabs is different from the God of the Christians and other. None of those verses say the religion of Islam is for all mankind. How did you reach that conclusion from those verses? You are stretching it to breaking point.