Noah: Yes a fundamental misunderstanding. Our dharmas are different I

* Interview with Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan

This interview was published in February 1999 issue

of "Jamhooria Islamia" a monthly Baluchi magazine published

from Panj-gar

Thanks to Jamil Baloch and Omar Nasr-Ullah who did the translation. --

Interview with Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan

Interviewed by Jalil Amir ---

Q:Please tell us about your stay with Qazi Hussain Ahmed

A:Qazi has two bungalows in Peshawar. We spent lot of time

in both the houses. The first house is where his family

lived and the second house was his office and rest house.

But he used to meet all his friends and relatives and

political workers only in his family house. He made sure at

least for 3 days in a week, Qazi and his close friends used

to spend time in his rest house. Unlike his family house,

the rest house had all the amenities that one can think of.

It had 36-inch television. 2 satellite dishes to receive

all kinds of telecasts from all over the world. He had made

extensive notes on all the telecasts. We used to discuss

all the things under the sun in his rest house.

I had a habit of drinking small amounts of wine. Qazi never

drank or smoked. Qazi knew about my weakness for wine. He

advised me not to drink and asked me to follow the steps of

Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) . Though I had a habit of drinking

only in very small amounts of fine wine just before dinner,

on Qazi's insistence, I left that habit. When I was

studying in engineering college, I had started the habit of

smoking too. I left that habit after Qazi's advice on

smoking.

I stayed with Qazi for almost 6 years in Peshawar. I did

not agree to some of the strategies used by JI during the

after Zia years. Qazi is a very practical man while I was

more of an idealist at that time. I was insisting that the

JI should not rely on ballot as the only route to power.

Qazi was insisting that ballot is the only way for JI to

come to power in Pakistan. This introduced a sense of

alienation between Qazi and me. Hence when I went to

Baluchistan to meet my parents, I stayed back rather than

going back to Peshawar. Even though almost weekly once we

talk over phone, Qazi never called me back to stay with him

and I found my work as the Jamaat teacher in Quetta where I

stay now with my parents and family.

Yet, my years with Qazi in Peshawar and around the world

with him were the most satisfying years in my life

intellectually.

Q: What are Qazi's views on Islam and Prophet Mohammad

(PBUH)

A: Qazi was a great admirer and student of Prophet Mohammad

(PBUH) . He modeled his whole thoughts and life on the life

and teachings of Mohammad (PBUH). I was astounded many

times by Qazi when he does a small thing, he will

immediately compare that incident with an incident in Al-

Hadith and explain that he did what Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)

did 10 centuries ago. I had never seen a person who had

modeled his whole life on sayings and teachings of Prophet

Mohammad (PBUH) like Qazi.

Q: The women issue is very controversial nowadays. Taliban

and some fundamentalist organizations restrict the freedom

of women. While some progressive Muslim intellectuals are

insisting that the women are equal to men in all spheres.

What are Qazi's views on women?

A: As I said earlier, the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)'s views

on women are the exact views of Qazi. Equality of men and

women is stupidity. What men can do, women cannot do and

what women can do, men cannot do. Women are weak physically

and mentally compared to men. For this we do not need any

proof other than to just look at men and women. Men have to

take care of women all the time. If some women do not have

any male relatives, then they have to find a man and marry

him so that he will take care of her. Women should not have

life outside the family. Education can be provided to them

but not to compete with men in public. Neither they can

fight in war nor they can be of use in peacetime politics.

Qazi had said once that JI comes to power in Pakistan, he

will abolish the voting rights of women and minorities.

Only the Muslim men can participate in voting or standing

for elections. When I asked the proof from Hadiths, he had

quoted many Hadiths in support of that. I asked him why is

that it is never talked openly in the public by Jamaat.

Qazi had said that the hints are all over the place. But JI

did not make it a big issue since the women who currently

have the voting may vote against JI in the elections if

such a thing is said openly. For this I was against. in my

opinion, since all the main leaders of Jamaat believes that

women will not have voting rights after they come to power,

they should openly say that. If you do not say now and then

you remove the voting rights later when you come to power,

that is going to build a resentment among the people. But

Qazi was firmly of the opinion that JI should not say that

now.

Q:That brings us to the question of minorities. Will they

have to pay Jizya tax?

A:Yes. They have to pay the tax. As explained by Qazi, the

idea of Jizya is not protection money. But it is a monetary

force on the non-Muslim to convert to Islam. Once the

Jamaat comes to power, the minorities will be induced

(forced) to become Muslims either by monetary or

psychological factors. JI is already equating the India

with Hindus so that the Hindus of Pakistan will be forced

to become Muslims. This was very successful strategy during

the Babri Masjid riots. JI actively involved in destroying

the Hindu temples in Punjab and Sindh. We ordered the

destruction of the Hindu family property too. But our main

aim was to destroy the Hindu temples. We wrote the JI

pamphlets that destroying each pagan temple make a Muslim

move closer to heaven of Allah. We used the Hadiths in all

the pamphlets. Babar destroyed the Ram temple in Ayodhya.

Because he was a true believer. The same way every Muslim

should take upon himself to destroy the Hindu temples in

Pakistan. Our idea was to encourage the Muslims of India

also to destroy the Hindu temples in India. But this was

not met with much success since the Hindu police in India

started attacking the Muslims who were doing the Allah's

duty.

Q: What kind of government that JI envisages for Pakistan?

A: It will be the Sharia govt. Sharia will be made our

constitution so that the eminent Muslim scholars who had

completed the schooling in Madrassas will be appointed as

the Judges in every court. Qazi wanted to make the

presidium on the same model as the Khalifa. Presently our

ideas is that the entire top leadership of JI as well as

all three military Generals will be part of the presidium

for which the Qazi will be the Kalifa. We are keenly

watching the progress of Taliban and learning from it. We

are impressed with the Taliban on the women issue,

minorities issue and law and order issue. Mullah Omar is a

great friend of Qazi. Omar had visited his house many

times. In the tentative talks, we had decided to form union

of Pakistan and Afghanistan once the right conditions are

set in Pakistan (i.e. the JI government in Pakistan). Our

motto is Constant Jihad. The idea is to keep Pakistan in a

constant state of Jihad all the time. Qazi's vision is that

Pakistan will be center of the new Islamic Empire that

stretches from Burma to Afghanistan and from Srilanka to

Tajikistan including Kashmir. Towards that end, Jamaat will

use all tactics from terrorism in the kafir-controlled

areas to negotiations in the Muslim controlled areas.

Already the Jamaat leaders of Bangladesh and Jamaat leaders

of India had accepted the primacy of Pakistani leadership

in this regard.

Q: Do they come to Pakistan?

A: Yes. We had made arrangements once in Peshawar and

another time in Multan during the Zia time. But the

understanding remains even now.

Q: What about Srilanka and Burma?

A: Both are Buddhist nations. For that matter even

Baluchistan and Afghanistan were Buddhist once while Sindh

and Punjab were Hindu earlier. Buddhists are generally

weaker in matters of faith. Hence we hope they will become

Muslim with a little pressure. But that will happen only

after Jamaat conquers first Pakistan and then India.

Q: What are the plans for India? It looks like entire India

policy of Jamaat revolves around Kashmir.

A: Yes that is true. But that is for a very good reason.

See Kashmir is like a keystone that sits on a top of the

arch. It is true that the arch holds the entire weight of

the keystone. But if you remove the keystone, then the

whole arch falls down. That is why it is called keystone.

Kashmir is the keystone for India. Once you remove that,

then India can no longer be secular and it will not be a

united country either. like the stones of the arch, all the

bricks will fall down. Qazi impressed this idea upon Zia.

Hence Zia started the Operation Topac. Operation Topac's

idea is not to get Kashmir for Pakistan as thought of by

Indian analysts. Operation Topac is much more. The ultimate

aim of Operation Topac is to make India a million pieces so

that it is easy for Pakistan to swallow India once piece at

a time. That is why Pakistan was encouraging the militancy

movements all over India. Once Kashmir is taken out, these

militancy movements will break India by asking the similar

freedom for Nagaland, Kerala, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Manipur,

Assam, Jharkand, Tamil Nadu, West Bengal and Khalistan. But

Benazir destroyed our whole plan by giving away the details

of the operation Topac to Indian govt. led by Rajiv Gandhi.

That was a big set back for our vision. But yet we are

moving ahead.

Q: I heard that she gave away only details about Khalistan

movement.

A: That is true. In my opinion, that is why I think the

damage is limited. India thinks and deals with separatist

movements in different parts of India as if they are

genuine movements even now. In that way, I say, the damage

is limited.

Q: Do you think if the states if India became independent

countries, no such similar movement will start in Pakistan

itself?

A: No. Jiye Sindh movement and small separatist movements

in Baluchistan and Peshawar are contained. We are not going

to deal with the separatism in Pakistan as India treats the

separatists. It will be Taliban style. Actually we do not

foresee any position for opposition in JI ruled Pakistan.

Hence the BNP and Pakhtoonkwa leaders will be made

irrelevant.

A: Coming back to the same point, If India to become many

countries how do you deal with the individual Hindu states.

They may even become big enemies of Pakistan. Or they may

again regroup to challenge Pakistan.

A: Qazi and other people had already discussed this

possibility. In our opinion, such a thing is not possible

since the language and cultural differences between states

in India are enormous. There is no language like Urdu to

bind all Indians. English and not Hindi that is common

language between all the states of India. Hence we have

planned to start riots in each state against the

neighborhood state people so that the states will always be

at the state of war. For example there are lot of

Kannadigas in TamilNadu and Telugu in Madras. We will start

the anti -telugu riots in Madras, which will keep the

Andhrapradesh and TamilNadu fighting. If we keep a bomb in

Telugu Cinema Theater in Madras and keep a bomb in Tamil

Movie Theater in Andhra, the war between Tamilnadu and

Andhra will run for eternity. The similar things can be

done in Assam cultural center in Bengal and Hindi prachar

sabha in Orissa. Given the differences between the

nationalities in India, the options for Pakistan are

endless. Qazi's vision is to make entire India a 100%

Muslim Nation. A United India, where Hindus are majority is

an impediment to that. Like Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) made

Muslims out of pagans of Arabia, Qazi also wants to make

Muslims out of the pagans of India.

Q: This is a great vision since this was not even possible

for the Muslim dynasties and Moguls who ruled India for the

last 700 years.

A: True. That is because they had never really established

the Muslim Empire. Though the Kings were Muslims they had

entertained the Hindus in positions of power. When you make

an unequivocal statement that only Muslims are voters and

declare that India is Islamic republic, then automatically

the people will become Muslims. Little bit of terror had to

be applied to the heart of Hindus and Christians. I will

give you a best example. The portions now constitute

Pakistan had 25% Hindu population before Independence.

After independence lot of Hindus migrated to India. Yet

after the migration, Pakistani Hindu population was 15%. Do

you know what is the percentage now? It is less than 1%.

How was this made possible? How did the Hindus converted to

Islam in a short span of 20 years whereas for 700 years

they had never converted to Islam? That is purely because

of the terror of the partition. That terror forced the

Hindus who remained in Pakistan to become Muslims. Pure and

simple. JI used similar techniques in Punjab and Sindh each

time a riot breaks out in India, we had used that pretext

to strike terror among the Hindus, Christians and

Ahmaddiahs. The similar terror will be at the heart of the

every non-Muslim both Hindu as well as Christian in coming

years in entire India. Qazi is a analytical genius who

knows every strategy that is used by Prophet Mohammad

(PBUH) will be and should be used in India to achieve the

total submission to Allah.

Q: Do you envision a possibility that when the Kashmir

becomes part of Pakistan, there could be large-scale riots

in India against Indian Muslims? Hence unwittingly Kashmir

could lead to more deaths of Indian Muslims and damage

Islamic Ummah.

A: Yes that is a possibility. But our ideology is based on

Quran and Hadiths. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) in numerous

Hadiths and Allah in Quran had said that any Muslim who

associates with a polytheist in a polytheist. Muslims

cannot be friendly with a non-Muslim. This includes the

Christians, Jews and Hindus. Also Mohammad (PBUH) says that

even if the Muslim ruler is not good, the Muslims stay with

the ruler than to go out to a non-Muslim country. Hadiths

and Quran are very explicit regarding this. All the Muslims

who did not migrate to Pakistan during Partition are in

essence Hindus. They may think that they are Muslims. But

not before Allah. They are as self-deluded as the

Ahmaddiahs who think they are Muslims when everyone knows

that they are not Muslims. Hence the Muslims of India who

had decided to stay in India during partition are not

Muslims and their progeny are not Muslim (since they did

not migrate to Muslim lands). Another thing that I noticed

in my journeys in India is that the Hindu farmers generally

offer their entire harvest to their gods at the end of

their harvesting season. This makes the entire crop as

haram for Muslims. Yet these so called Muslims of India are

forced to eat this food which was already offered to some

other God other than Allah thallah. This is explicitly

forbidden in Quran. And this is one of the serious problems

of living in non-Muslim countries. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)

knew such things; that is why he ordered Muslims not to

live in non-Muslim areas. Yet knowingly these so called

Muslims live in India. Again all the Muslims who migrate to

other countries and US are non-Muslims. Only the Muslims

who intend to come back are Muslims not the ones who decide

to stay in such countries.

Hence we do not care if such Indian Muslims die in the

riots. But due to strategy reasons we do have excellent

relations with these Muslims. All the Muslims who work for

Pakistan and for glory of Ummah are real Muslims. They are

our front line troops in non-Muslim countries. Hence we

have to distribute the arms and ammunitions to these real

Muslims in case of riots come to their door.

Whereas the Kashmiri Muslims are pure Muslims who are

toiling under the yoke of Hindu rule. They are victimized

by the international conspiracy to keep them under the

Hindu rule. That issue is part of the incomplete partition.

Whereas the Indian Muslims have accepted partition and

stayed on in India knowingly.

Q: Yet the popular uprising in Kashmir was missing in 1965

as well as in 1948.

A: That is true. That may be because of the clout of Sheik

Abdullah of Kashmir during 1948 war. Actually the Muslim

population in Jammu Kashmir was only marginally higher than

Hindus. Muslims constituted 58% while the non-Muslims

constituted the 42%. Hence the operation Topac aimed at

eliminating the Kashmiri Pandits from the valley. We

thought all of them will go to India. Instead many went to

Jammu and only very little went to India. Hence we had to

ask Harkatul to start terrorising the Hindus in Jammu. We

also expected large scale war against Muslims in Jammu as

well as in all the parts of India because of the killings.

Indian govt suppressed these information. Another thing

that was not done is the complete removal of Buddhists and

Hindus from Jammu and Kashmir. We could do only in Valley

and not in jammu and Ladakh. Hence the population of

Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir is around 65% only according

to Harkatul.

Q: Tell us about your stay in Saudi Arabia.

A: We embarked on a Umra as team of JI leaders. of course,

Zia had arranged every convenience for us. We were

accommodated in a Sheik's house. He is one of the richest

Builders in Saudi Arabia. He owns few gold shops in Qatar

too. Sheik was a personal friend of Zia Ul Haq. During the

time of Zia, we were not politically active. Since Zia did

whatever Qazi wanted, there was no need for political power

either. Hence we had lot of time. That is the main reason

why we stayed 3 full months in Sheik's palace. This sheik

comes from a Bedouin family of southwestern Arabia. He had

the habit of drinking camel urine and camel milk early in

the morning. I asked him why does he do that? He replied

that it is the family tradition as well as Islamic practice

that is supported by Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). I was

astounded. But Qazi explained to me that it is true. He

told me three or four Hadiths in which the camel urine and

camel milk drinking is suggested. So Qazi wanted to drink

the camel urine and camel milk along with the Sheik. Since

I could not bring up myself to drink the camel urine, I

drank only fresh camel milk, which was thick and frothy.

But Qazi drank the camel urine and camel milk the same

amount and same time as the sheik. Qazi astounded me in

this incident. I am amazed by the fact that Qazi was ready

to go any length to mould his life in the teachings of the

prophet.

Q: Does he continue to do that even today?

A: No. He bought a camel after coming to Pakistan. Three

years later he had kidney stones problem. As per the

doctor's advice he had to stop drinking the urine while he

continued the drinking camel milk. Doctor advised him to

stop drinking the milk as well since the camel milk is rich

in calcium compared to the cow milk. I think he stopped

drinking any milk or milk products. But he had said that

once JI comes to power in Pakistan, he will popularize the

camel milk and camel urine drinking in Pakistan. But I

doubt he can do that. In my opinion, only camel milk can be

popularized.

Q: That is quite news to me. How was your stay in Arabia

otherwise?

A: First I have to tell you that Saudi Arabia, as a country

name, is wrong. It is Just Arabia. Only that Saudi dynasty

rules over some parts of Arabia. You cannot put your name

before a holyland as if you own that land. For Pakistan if

Nawaz rules it, will it become Sheriff Pakistan and

tomorrow Bhutto rules it and will it become Bhutto

Pakistan?

Anyway, one thing we noticed is that the Arabians own

slaves. Though Allah says that the slaves should be treated

in a nice manner, he did not advocate the abolition of

slavery. If slavery is bad as considered in today's world,

Allah certainly would have said that the slavery is wrong.

Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) also said that the slaves should be

treated in a good manner and the slaves should be released

often. But if there is no slavery how can anyone release

slaves? Hence the reintroduction of slavery in Pakistan is

one of the future plans of Jamaat. All the captured Hindu

Indians and Srilankans will be made slaves to work for

Pakistani Muslims. Every God abiding Pakistani Muslim will

get slaves once we conquer India. All the slaves who

embrace Islam will be set free. Slavery is Islamic. Jamaat

is the only political party, which does not voice any

opposition to the slavery of Harees (defeated) in Pakistan.

We went around all over Arabia. We were surprised to know

that there are some Hindus in Yemen. These ancient Yemeni

Hindus are not Indians. In my opinion, these Hindus are

traders from India in the ancient times. I was also

surprised to know that they have a Shiva temple in Yemen.

Qazi was very unhappy over this. When he talked to Yemen

leaders, he broached this subject. But the Yemeni leaders

refused Qazi's suggestion of forced conversion of these

people to Islam. I don't know why they refuse. I think it

may be due to the large population of Hindus from India who

work in Yemen and Arabia. He disliked the current

leadership of Arabia for this reason. In his opinion,

Arabia should not allow any non-Muslim into holy lands of

Arabia. Arabia should be 100% pure. Large number of Hindus

in Arabia is corrupting the Arabians. Though they live as

contractors, they have the potential of corrupting the

minds of the Arabians. One such thing is the presence of

Arabians in Qatar Hindu temple. First the king allowed the

Hindus to build a temple and church in the holy lands there

by polluting the Holy Land. Second is that even a member of

the Royal family visit that temple to inaugurate that

temple. To the horror of Qazi he had learnt that one of the

powerful member of Qatar royal family is a devotee of a god

called Aayanppan. This news resolved Qazi to fight the

force of the devil thousand fold.

Q: Such things happen in Pakistan today. I mean a friend of

mine goes to a Hindu temple. Another friend goes to church

meetings.

A: Yes. One of Qazi's relatives wanted to become a Hindu.

He did not have a child for many years and it seems he had

prayed to a Hindu God and got the child. Hence he felt

thankful to that god and wanted to become a Hindu. Qazi got

to know of this and called him and threatened him dire

consequences. That relative did not become a Hindu. But

that incident made Qazi read more about apostasy. Quran and

Hadith clearly say the punishment for abandonment of Islam

is death. Since Sharia is not the law in Pakistan, and the

current Pakistani constitution grants right to change the

religion, it is legally correct to declare oneself as Hindu

or Christian. But once JI takes over the government, it

will make Sharia as the constitution. Then Pakistan also

legally execute any person who leaves Islam and joins

Ahmaddiah, Christianity or Hinduism the same way Iran and

Taliban treats its apostates. He also opined that the

presence of the Hindu temples in Pakistan is the root cause

of the problem and hence we want to destroy all the Hindu

temples and Churches in Pakistan.

Q: This brings us into another area. Right now Internet is

becoming widespread. Even Saudi Arabia is connected with

outside world. Destroying the temples may be good but how

we can insulate the Pakistani and Muslim people against the

corrupting knowledge totally?

A: JI had taken a principled stand on the matter of science

and religion. Religion is far superior to science. Whatever

man needs to know is in Quran and Hadiths. Knowing more

will create problems like the Atom bomb and Television.

Quran and Hadiths are explicit in denouncing pictures. Yet

the lure of Satan in the form of photography and television

is eating our lives. Music previously was confined only to

the vocal singing. Now science and technology made the

music widespread at a cheaper price. These are the lures of

Satan. We have to on guard against these harami things.

Hence more science and technology is bad for the

civilization. I had completed civil engineering. Hence I am

privy to scientific knowledge. I can tell you how

corrupting that is. It even makes you question the glorious

Quran. There are many Hadiths, which say that the earth is

flat. But any science will tell you the earth is a sphere.

But you can use the same science like relativity theory to

prove that the earth is flat. It is the same case with

evolution. But the point being that the doubt is sown in

the minds of the people on the validity of Quran as the

word of God. More and more we work hard in proving the

Quran's scientific correctness, more and more people will

get apprehensive of the truth of Quran. This is an

abomination. This is why when we talk of education, we talk

of religious education and not scientific education.

It is true that science grew after Prophet's revolution in

Arabia. That was start of science. Now each and every

science is filled with anti-god stuff. If you want to

become a doctor, you have to read evolution. If you have to read any engineering you have to believe in the billions of years old universe theory which effectively says that the human beings came to world only in just one or two million years back.

Q: But we still need the arms and knowledge of western world, which believes in science. And again you had referred to television as evil. If we abolish photography

how can we have passports or identification cards?

A: Yes. That is strategic. With the help of Allah, we will be given oil for them to run their cars and we will have arms in that place. We will use their arms to destroy them in the course of time. As for as photos are concerned, they will be banned as it is done in Afghanistan. If there is no need for people to go out of Pakistan where is the need for the passports? For those who have to travel to other countries like the leaders of the revolution, they only will be given the passport with photos. For that, we will allow limited photography licensed only to govt. And the biggest corruption in today's Pakistan is Indian satellite TV and Indian cinemas and Indian