Michel flips once more!

Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Mar 2, 2007 at 22:14

Michel wrote:

"If that's true, Noah, then you have first and foremost my respect."

There you go again, refusing to believe anything I tell you.

"It is a fact that out of any war two kinds of people emerge. The ones come out of it with everlasting hatred against the enemy, as they saw friends die in aforementioned terrible ways. These people will see any possible threat as something which must be addressed decisively and early on, as they never again want to be in a similar situation. In a way I can understand now, where you are coming from (on a psychological dimension)"

Michel, don't play "internet shrink". This isn't the mechanism behind my decisions. My point was only that I have indeed seen the horrors of war, and do not see war as a video game. I don't hate Muslims because I had friends killed by them in war or anything like that. I hate the threat they constitute, and the way they are working to undermine our society...nothing more, nothing less.

"There is another type though who draws entirely different conclusions from carnage experienced. Never again applies here too, but in specific regards to innocent lives. Nothing to do with Gulf war or Stockholm syndrome, or surrendering to the enemy."

"Never again" refers to a genocide, a Holocaust, wherein the Nazis tried to systematically elminate the Jewish race. It does not apply to war. Wars will happen. Threats arise and must be dealt with. You're simply afraid to deal with it. Heck, you're afraid even to confront the issues, much less the enemy!

"There is a difference between an enemy combatant and innocent people. I‘ll never hesitate to defend this country bearing arms in any conventional war or in the war on terrorism. Unnecessary, cruel action against civilians - sorry I can not accept as "collateral damage"."

Where do I begin with this paragraph? First of all, it is not cruel to kill the enemy. If we wiped out Islamism, we'd be doing a service to the other 6 billion people who live under the threat of Islamism. Second, collateral damage happens in ever war. Always has, always will. It is inevitable, unavoidable, and unalterable. Only weaklings who are disconnected from reality believe in wars without collateral damage. Third, when it comes to Islam, every Muslim who is not reform minded (ie 99.999% of them) are enemies, just as much as the terrorists. They are no different from the Germans who were building submarines and airplanes for the Nazi army. They may not have been shooting guns at us directly, but they were supporting the cause. Same idea here. You're simply too blind to see that.

"a) do these atrocities happen here in the US? No. Therefore the domestic Muslims can not be grouped into the same category as the ones you talk about."

Michel, we have covered this issue with you half a trillion times if we've covered it once. You simply refuse to discuss it or to understand it. Just because they are not openly bombing things does not mean they are not a threat. Go back to those links I provided about CAIR and what the Muslims are doing in Detroit. Or better yet, go there and see for yourself.

"b) Where they occur, they must be opposed by all means at our disposal indeed."

I know you don't have the guts to answer this, but I'll ask anyway as a matter of record. When the threat is not the commission of atrocities but rather the subversive erosion of our society and the infiltration into our country, what means are you prepared to use that will be effective to counter the threat? Are you even intelligent enough to recognize a threat that does not involve bombs and guns?

"Which Islam? How about the many Black converted Muslims here? The Canadian Moderate Muslim, the guys who wrote those articles I submitted? They all declared war on you? Poor baby, relax, it ain't that bad, I assure you."

Well, there goes the respect you mentioned a few paragraphs back [rolling my eyes]. There is only one Islam, Michel. Until you understand that, you will always be a delusional clown who cannot comprehend the truth of the matter and the nature of the threat.

"Where we disagree and seem to be unable to find compromise, Noah, is that I can not see evidence for an all encompassing Muslim threat"

Only because you do not want to see that truth, Michel. You have avoided discussing this issue from day one. Any time anyone presents evidence or arguments dealing with the issue, you ignore it. If you were man enough to face it, perhaps we'd find some agreement. But you refuse to this day to even look at the evidence.

"Noah - there is no such City."

It was just an analogy, a manner of speaking. The point being better to blow up a city full of people who commit terror, endorse terror, approve of terror, finance terror, aid and abet terror, etc, that to allow them to blow up an American city.

"There are only organizations and groups hidden amongst many peaceful normal average people."

A claim you have failed utterly to back with evidence. A claim that has been disproved by many of us repeatedly. A claim that defies common sense, historical reality, polls, studies, current events, etc.

"If in fact it was that simple, and there was a whole City unanimously supporting a nuclear attack on any US City, hell of course would we pre-empt such with our own strike."

I'll put it in terms you can understand. We're not facing a city full of enemies. We are facing an expansionist, global death cult that is trying to infiltrate and subvert where it cannot conquer via force. Every country where Muslims gather, they try force Islam on the people. Look at London. Look at Detroit. It's everywhere they are. That alone is a threat. The fact is that when they reach a critical mass, they tend to engage in forceful genocide, in militancy, in attack to force "infidels" to submit to Islam. When they gain power, they vote in extremist terror groups or institute Sharia law. The story is always the same. The migratory attack is the groundwork being laid. If you knew anything at all about combat, their tactics would stand out to you like a sore thumb. You do not understand the nature of warfare though, so you are blind to their tactics. You live in ignorance and refuse to see what those who can see are showing you. It's not like you're blind. It's like you have your eyes shit really tightly. The rest of us are saying "Look, look at the writing on this wall! It's very clear and bold! Open your eyes!". But you refuse to open your eyes because then you might have to change your view, and you are adamantly opposed to becoming enlightened.

"But this simplistic scenario simply does not exist. The closest maybe would be IRAN, and even there, the collateral damage would be mind-blowing."

Who cares? Better them than us. Perhaps you don't care if Iran launches a nuclear attack to generate an EMP and puts the United States back into the pre-electronic age, but I do. Perhaps you don't mind if Iran wipes our allies off the map, but I do. Perhaps you don't care if Iran uses their nuclear weapons to blackmail the world, but I do. Look at how belligerent they are now, without having an active nuke. Imagine them with nukes. And you are wrong about Iran. There is a greater number of reform-minded people in Iran that there are in Syria or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. You don't even know the subject you're discussing!

"Here we go again with the personal insult."

It's not an insult. It's the truth. A clown hides from reality, pontificates on a subject of which he has no knowledge, flip flops from one personality to another, stages drama queen exists, and plays games. Our attitudes towards you have changed due to your actions (and lack of honest engagement).

"Susan is indeed a lost case and you, dear ex soldier, can only be called brain dead, as not even these harsh experiences, you claim to have had, have opened up your eyes"

Brain dead because I look at all sides of the issues and study it in depth? I don't think so. If I'm brain dead, then why do you run and cower from my challenges? Surely you can defeat the arguments of the brain dead! You simply refuse to comment or respond when either I or Susan or anyone else presents compelling evidence to you. You conveniently avoid it by either:

a) hurling personal insults and displaying faux righteous indignation in order to skirt the issue
b) ignoring it for weeks until it gets buried and "forgotten" (or so you think), or
c) posting a half-hearted and impotent response that does not even address the issue, then immediately declare yourself the "victor" despite having done nothing to refute the claims presented

"People like you tend to repeat mistakes again and again and never break the deadly mechanism of action and revenge."

On the contrary, I am not making the mistake. You, Michel, are literally re-enacting the years prior to WWII and you are playing the role of Chamberlain. You insist on ignoring an obvious threat. We all saw what that brought about.

"My respect goes to John McCain who spent 2 years in a NVA Prison Camp, yet never condemned or discriminated against any Vietnamese to my knowlege."

McCain is a politician and an idiot.

"Are you even reading my posts? As Plato so eloquently described, you Nazis take a simple statement out of context, negate any disclaimers and like a parrot keep on repeating yourself to the effect of a sleeping pill."

Because you keep making them. You repeated the "30 million claim" twice after I shot it down and challenged you to present evidence of that absurdity, then you later quietly modified it to 12 million, which is only slightly less absurd, once again without evidence. Perhaps if you would engage people honestly and direct your attention to the issues and confront the claims of others with verifiable facts, you'd gain some respect.

"Even 2 M is a significant amount of people and the statement that they wait in hiding to infiltrate like sleeper cells, is just your easy way out to explain utter lack of evidence for their militancy."

No, Michel. It is not an "easy way out". I have explained it in detail, I have backed it up with irrefutable logic, verifiable facts, current events, and historical precedence. I (and others) have explained their tactics, how they work, and where it has been used before. We have explained the tactic to you in strategic terms. You simply refuse to address this issue. Why? Because it is the lynchpin to your entire belief system. If you were to explore the issue, you would see the truth. That would force you to admit that Susan and I are right (which would probably kill you to do), and it would force you to change your whole outlook. You simply refuse to do so.

"As opposed to me, who believes in the tooth fairy of Moderate Islam, you believe in the Bogey Man of the Ugly Muslim. That makes me at worst a dreamer, while you become by definition paranoid. What do you think is most likely the preferable mental state?"

First of all, your claim here is totally false. You believe that the mythological moderate Muslim exists in some sort of significant number, but you have to this point failed to provide evidence of their existence. As I have pointed out repeatedly, reform-minded Muslims are an aberrtion, a blip on the radar. They account for less than one one-thousanth of one percent of Muslims. Perhaps less than one ten-thousanth of one percent. You have failed utterly to present evidence of a moderate, peaceful, reform-minded movement inside Islam. On the other hand, I have indeed proven not only that your mythological moderate Muslim is nothing more than an aberration, an anomaly, a one-in-ten-million freak occurrence, but I have also provided plenty of evidence of the inherently barbaric nature of Islam and Muslims. I have show you proof of their goals and their tactics. I have given you modern and historical evidence and proof of how they behave. I have shown you their behavior and actions taking place this very day right here in the heart of America. Your comparison between our views is totally inaccurate because my view has been proven to exist in reality, and in astronomical numbers. Your view, on the other hand, has not only been unproven by you or by anyone else making that absurd claim (even Dr. Pipes refuses to address my challenge on it), but it has also been disproven by me and by others by giving you example after example of incidences right here in America where Muslims refuse to come out in any significant number to reform their religion, while they do manage to come out in force to protest tv shows that offend them, or to celebrate getting a terrorist in office, or to celebrate terrorist atrocities.

Second, even if we go with the false assumption that neither of us has proven our case, it is far safer, far more responsible, and far better in every way to side with my view over yours. Here is why. We know for a fact that Muslims are plotting atrocities. We know for a fact that they have committed atrocities (twice bombed the WTC, driving SUVs into college campuses, etc). We know for a fact that they are preaching hatred here in America (read the reports of investigations into mosques and madrassahs here). So there is no question...Muslims are engaged in war with us right here in the USA. We saw what 13 enemies can do. We have potentially 2 MILLION enemies on our shores. If we deport them, we remove the threat. If many or even most of them are peaceful, we have still removed the threat, and have forced them to reform their religion in order to come back. It's a win/win. If I am wrong, we still win, because while we net some innocents, we also clear out all the villains and save potentialy millions and millions of lives of Americans who have done nothing wrong. And those "innocent" Muslims we'd have removed at at the very least guilty due to indifference and refusing to reform their religion. Justice is done, freedom is preserved.

If we go with your absurd claim, and do nothing because you wish to believe that most Muslims are tolerant and peaceful (in direct denial of reality), then inevitably they will commit more atrocities because even by your claim there are admittedly thousands of radicals here . They will import a nuke or other WMD and instigate a a mass terror attack that tops 9/11. At that point, there would be a nuclear response by America, and Muslims all across the country would be lynched in the streets by people like me. The country would be in chaos and we'd see millions dead on both sides.

In other words, if we instigate my plan and I am right, we are better off. If we instigate my plan and I am wrong, we are still better off. However, with your approach, if you are right then we are still the target of atrocties, which are probably inevitable and which will probably kill millions of innocent Americans, because by your own admission there are Muslim radicals in America plotting against us, and history has proven this. If you are wrong, it's even worse. Why? Because then we are looking at the utter destruction of America and all it stood for.

So no matter how you slice it, it's far better to believe in a Muslim Boogey Man than a Mythological Moderate Muslim.

"BOOOOHOOOOO! Tears of pity stream down my cheek to the sound of the violins.And yes, dear Noah, your language, suggestions and depiction of 1.5B Muslims can not lead to any other conclusion than to an obligation for all ascended human beings to vilify people like you."

As I said, you're simply living in denial of reality. Cowardice and fear have a tendency to encourage ignorance. You can try to vilify us all you like. I have found ten times as much support for my views as I have insubstantial criticism such as yours. You cannot vilify truth. It has this tendency to expose itself, like sunlight.

"The growing threat of Islam is growing because of people like you who do not leave them another choice. "

A perfect example of your complete and utter dishonesty and lack of reading comprehension. I have given them a way out...REFORM! If they reform their death cult into a peaceful religion, then they're welcome to stay. I have no problem with Islam outside of its violence and intolerance towards others. If Muslims would respect and honor my society, my religion, my way of life, we'd get along just fine. They are being given countless opportunities to reform themselves and yet they refuse. Whether this refusal is due to fear, laziness, cowardice, indifference, or hate is not my concern. The fact is, they do not reform. Hence, they constitute a threat. That threat must be addressed. In order to address it, they must be removed, just like a child molester or murdered is removed from our society for the good of society. Then a deterrent is applied, the same deterrent we used successfully for half a century during the Cold War.

Of course, you insist in seeing this as some sort of Nazi extermination endeavour, which just proves your dishonesty.

" Keep on pressing and you will – I said it many times – create exactly the monster you fear."

I have some bad news for you, Michel. The monster already exists. Open your eyes, wake up, and experience reality for a change.

"As opposed to your naïve strategy, I delivered a catalogue of at least feasible (boring simple and small) ways to address various challenges with regards to Islam. First and foremost, know thy enemy and it is not Islam Grosso Modo."

On the contrary, you are the one who has been proven not to know his enemy or his enemy's tactics, and indeed not his enemy's history. You have not catalogued solutions. You have offered insignificant and meaningless drivel and smokescreens. You have offered fantasy conjecture that is utterly disconnected from reality.

"When will that ever penetrate the concrete wall of your ignorance? ..."

I have no "wall of ignorance", Michel. I deal only with reality. You're the one living in ignorance since you avoid any discussion of the hard issues.

"You are no clowns - you are stupid ignoramusses, societal fanatics, Nazis, supremacists, considering themselves as better, purer and worthier."

So much for all that respect! [rolling eyes once more] See Michel, this is your only way out. Your only tactic. You cannot and will not address the issues in an intelligent manner. You have yet to respond to any of the evidence or any of the challenges I have presented you with. Instead, you spew idiotic insults and engage us with inaccurate name-calling. Face it. You're simply not man enough to deal with the hard issues. You're petrified with fear at the thought of finding out you are wrong. I pity you.

"You quote history again and again, yet prove human kind's inability to learn from it."

On the contrary, you are the one who refuses to learn history's lessons. You refuse to acknowlede Islam's past, or its present, and you avoid all thought of its unpleasant future if something is not done. I am the one presenting historical precedence, you are the one avoiding addressing it.

"Wow – I dished out a bit of your own medicine and it obviously isn't fun - is it now?"

Michel, don't give yourself airs. Your insults don't bother me at all. They just prove that you're a delusional clown who cannot handle reality. Sometimes they are funny, but usually just dead boring. Remember, I am not the one whining about being exhausted and beaten up, or crying to the moderators..."Mommy, step in and make Noah and Susan shut up! They're offending me!". I am not the one doing drama queen exists just because someone insults me or saying he's been mugged and humbled.All that is coming from YOU, Michel. Believe me, I can take easily as much as I can dish out...and I can dish out a lot! I am merely pointing out a fact. You sink to absurd and inaccurate insults as an avoidance mechanism. Anyone who follows your posting habits can see that. You use insults, righteous indignation, and whining as a way to avoid dealing with issues you cannot address.

"The above is your and most so Susan's standard MO. It stings, haha, and you guys do deserve a bit of a blister for a change."

Believe me, Michel, it takes a far better man than you to "blister" me. Your attacks to this point are about as effective as a little old lady slapping an armored rhinocerous. But if you feel like indulging in some sort of fantasy world where you believe your insults have offended me, more power to you! It's not like you deal with reality on other issues anyway, so why break a perfect record?

"All of a sudden, several moderates have picked up the debate and the three musketeers Noah, Dhimmi and Susan find themselves in close quarters combat…lol. It does start to get a bit uncomfortable, doesn't it?"

You really are a strange person. Several moderates? Who? We've shot down and exposed people like Mo and Syed as radicals. Moderate Muslim has been exposed as not being knowledgable on Islam at all and in fact has proven to be another brainwashed follower. Close quarters combat? I revel in that! That's my specialty, it's what I teach. No problem there! And you think this is uncomfortable? Please! I have not yet felt a single post by anyone on your "side" that has given me any challenge whatsoever, if we discount the challenge of breaking through denial. Again, I am not the one doing the drama queen exits because of being "exhausted, beaten up, burned out, mugged, depressed, drained" as you have done and claimed so many times. As I told you in another post of mine a few days back, I am actually invigorated by all this. It motivated me to set up a new website and to start a research paper on the matter. So I hate to once again burst your fantasy bubble, but no, I am not uncomfortable with the level of opposition I face here. In fact, I wish I could get some decent competition from a Muslim who can actually hammer at me with hard questions. So far, that's not happening.

" Your Goebbels Propaganda does not stand unanswered anymore - not even in this right wing dominated blog."

My claims cannot be "Goebbels Propaganda" since they are not lies, bu rather provable and historical fact. but feel free to use my Goebbels analogy for yourself, inaccurate though it is coming from you.

" It tells me that you guys would miserably crash and burn in any mainstream forum."

Direct me to a mainstream forum of your choice that allows free speech and I will say the same thing there I am saying here. I say this everywhere.

"Yep - I only check in here from time to time to get a good laugh, especially, when enjoying Plato's contributions."

Is that why you're always whining about how drained, depressed, and upset you are when reading this blog? Is that why you keep staging drama queen exits?

"Thanks for the compliment. So I am not just a clown? Even your insults lack constistency."

I expected more from you when you first started posting, because you came off as reasonable. You quickly showed your true colors though.

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