" If there is a Muslim still out there, please comment too ... Allah the Compassionate , the Beneficient will help you...

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Mar 7, 2007 at 17:16

Dear Michel,

I don't know if I should thank you for your flattery or rather upbraid you for that. I wish I could leave it unnoticed. Let's concentrate on a few matter-of-fact things instead .

> I found myself nodding oftentimes, while reading your post, and at present can only say that I more on an instinctive level feel, that there is a lot of common ground we can work with.

You're no Moslem . I am no Moslem. We have enough common ground to stand on.

> For once, so much may be said for right now - your assumptions about me were on the mark.

There was something in the way you wrote that suggested to me you're a public personality.

>Ironically in many ways I am - so true - some sort of politician (exec management, public speaking, mediation, moderation, conflict resolution and the likes) , even though, I am not running for any office and do not plan to do so. Hence, believe me, I am not trying to win (muslim or any other) votes.

I don't believe that. Those who try to do that choose other forums and other audiences.

> Yes it is true - our one fundamental difference in opinion, where we derive our own individual causal chains or logic from, causes us to part ways early on - but instinctively I now feel, that it is not a 180 degrees fork in the road, but more so an angled crossing, if you entertain my poor effort to use an analogy.

It's not poor at all. I find it quite apt.

> For now- To MM or any other Muslim who has dared to engage here - Ianus in a respectful tone made many strong remarks and posed many very good questions to which I personally would love to get a Muslim perspective.

"Muslim perspective"? ...It sounds quite relativistic. I wonder how our Moslem absolutists will manage to solve the grave problem you (unwittingly? ) posed , dear Michel.

> I very much would appreciate MM for instance to comment, while I myself will try to craft a decent reply on my own.

No hurry. As to the self-proclaimed "Moderate Muslims" I can hardly rely on their cooperation.

> In the meantime, Ianus, if you could comment on my response to Dhimmi with regards to various interpretations of expressions out of the Koran from within the Muslim World. I found such in abundance on the internet and in my mind find myself confirmed, as far as the homogenity of ISLAM ( or better the lack thereof) is concerned.

Well , I share and appreciate Dhimmi's views , so will my comment really help in any way ? His knows Allah's slang . I don't.

> One question popped up immediately though:

> How do you know, how Muslim Children are being raised ( especially the ones living within our society)?

I knew a few Moslems here and I rely on their conservatism and Islam's grip on them. A little knowledge of Moslem history is also helpful.

> Where do you base the notion upon that they are being indoctrinated from the very first stage on, whereas ours do not experience anything comparable?

We are not comparable to Moslems as our religion(s) have long lost the virulency and oppressive omnipotence of Islam. We joke about our God. It's absolutely "haram" in Islam. Or shall we ask our Moderate Muslim to tell us a joke about Allah. If he knows none , I may help him. I heard a few.

> Has anyone, Susan, Dhimmi, Noah or you in fact seen this first hand?

An Arab who comes to Poland , converts a girl to Islam , begets a child who calls later her kaffiri grandmother "You pig" . It looks like a first hand experience, doesn't it ?

> Lived door to door with Muslim neighbors whose children went to the same school with yours?

I have no children alas.

We are in happy state that we have practically no Moslems here in Poland (Blesses is the country with no Moslems to ruin and blackmail it !) . I mean 35 000 out of c. 38 000 000 . When I was in Sweden I met many people who often talked about such experiences. They really hate their politicians and the Eu(rabia) for all of that and are afraid of what is going to come later. It's very bad in Malmö and Landskrona in Skåne.

> Shared an evening table with these neighbors and seen this form of indoctrination with your very own eyes?

Yes, I have. It was when Majjid Mustafa invited me - I had gone to school with his Islamized wife - to participate in the 10th anniversary of the wedding. He invited also his Arab friends. It was the nastiest evening I spent hearing their antisemitic harangues and hateful Moslem propaganda. The children were there too to learn how to praise Allah and condemn the Jews. The neighbour (the one called "You pig" by her granddaughter) often told us about the prayer rituals in the house ornated with gilded Quran quotes. Besides , when you open your ears and eyes you can learn plenty of such things if you want to. If you don't you'll learn nothing of course.

> Well, eventhough I actually spent much time with Muslims of the middle east, let alone with modern muslims here, I have not seen much evidence to that fact at all.

You seem to distinguish between "Muslims in the Middle East" and " 'modern' Muslims here". It's a remarkable distinction , Michel.

Probably you never looked for the evidence as you ignored the case or they treated you as a useful "ingénu". You asked the "right" questions and they gave you the "right" answers... How many Westerners trevelling to spend a holiday in Turkey are aware of the country's genocidal recent history , let alone of its distant tyranny? They are told Turkey is a land of many cultures. they are shown some ruined Greek temples , an amphitheatre , a few dancing dervishes perform their dance in front of them ...Who will asked them about Smyrna in September 1922 ? ...They come back to their home and tell the neighbours how fantastic the country is and how friendly people are , and Turkish food is splendid ... In short they got too "know" a new culture...

> I know that my personal experiences may not be representative, and I know that especially in the middle east such fanaticism can be found often ( something I delivered plausible explanations for in many of my posts).

Often? I'd risk to say it's ubiquitous.

> Albeit - it does flabber me a bit, how my experiences can so utterly be non-representative with a lifestyle of up to 250k airmile/per year over the last 10 years.

Perhaps sometimes seclusion , calm and detachment , not extensive touring are required to see some things clearly.

> Not trying to be patronizing in any way, I would nevertheless dare to venture that my direct exposure to (admittedly all shades (including fundamentalist and violent) of Islam would be far more extensive than what the average Westerner may have.

It's not excluded. But given a few hard facts (your too basic knowledge of the tenets of Islam and the Quran and misapplied relativism ) made you not so much particular and inquisitive about what you had seen , if I may venture this diagnosis.

> Why do I see the average (Muslim) family so differently than you all?

Because actually you don't see it as Muslim at all. You think naively that Islam is a reincarnation and repetition of Christianity ( another "Abrahamic" faith , as the absurd formula goes) and as you know very well Christianity has lost its power and was so positively transformed , then you assume tacitly that the same must happen among Moslems. This analogy misled you to belittle and dismiss the driving force within every Moslem -Islam.

> How can you depict them as "utterly and comprehensively" brainwashed, conditioned, indoctrinated from early stages on?

How can you be so naive as to treat them as something else than what they are - Moslems ?

> Across the board including in the West?

Islam is valid in all times and climes. Every Moslem knows that. The West is for them just a temporary inconvenience , an anomaly to which they have to get adapted provisionally. But they do their best to get rid of this anomaly as their aim is everywhere the same - dar-al-Islam must be estabished on this globe. They may differ on minor points . On this fundamental point there is no essential difference of opinion.

> What is it , I seem to be unable to comprehend here?

> Ianus - no pun, irony or joke - I am in all truthfulness confused.

A good starting point on the road to realism. There must be something wrong with your belief in innocent (=moderate) Islam. That's where your confusion manifestly comes from , I surmise.

> Anyway - with this one post of yours and many of Plato's wonderful pieces, you guys made it worthwhile for me to hang around a bit longer. I learned, grew, was forced to stop and think - all that is fun and my synapses are firing salvos all over the place.

I hope you'll learn and grow further , dear Michel. Good things always require much effort. Understanding is not given to us. We have to struggle to achieve it.

> With these 2 last posts alone you were able to challenge me to a way higher extent, than all of the oftentimes extremely insulting posts of Noah, Dhimmi or Susan combined.

No exaggeration! Their posts are fine too. I enjoy reading them.

> I think tonight I will drink to your health with Polish Vodka in my Bloody Mary :-)

I must disappoint you... I never drink alcohol. ;)

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