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Good Muslims vs. Bad Muslims: Reply To Pat on ReciprocityReader comment on item: Shoeless George Bush Submitted by Chris G. (United States), Jul 4, 2007 at 18:22 Thanks for responding Pat with a well written reply. You ask very good and important questions and I will attempt to answer them to the best of my abilities. I do not claim I am 100% correct but hopefully I can give some food for thought on a new direction that our foreign policy can take while at the same time insuring our national security. At the beginning of your response you mention the two contrasting views from Afghani imams on suicide bombing. It is actually quite easy to tell the two apart because you basically give the perfect example: You simply listen to what they say. Its quite easy to pick out the radicals by simply listening to the sermons at their mosques and by what they teach at their madrassas (Islamic schools). Within modern Islamic theology there is some debate as to whether or not suicide bombing is allowed against a military target. However, those who claim it is allowed against civilian targets have absolutely no basis in ANY Islamic theology. In my research, when I run across radicals on the internet who claim it is justified, I always challenge them with this: "Show me ANYWHERE in the Qu'ran or ANY Hadith that allows you to take the lives of women and children." There is not a single verse in the Qu'ran or Hadiths that directly says that women and children can be killed. The only exception is if those women or children take up arms. What is even worse to Islam however is that most of those they kill are fellow Muslims. Some will say, "They are apostates and are no longer Muslims because they support the kafr (infidel) occupiers." This is known as declaring takfir on another Muslim and is something that is never to be done lightly. You simply ask these extremists, "Do you know the hearts of those Muslims you slaughter? Are not the children you murder innocent in heart and mind? Do you think they know politics? Do you think that you are all knowing like Allah? How dare you put yourself on the same level as Allah! Go and pray to Allah for mercy and redeem yourself through love and compassion if you do not wish hellfire as the worst of sinners- a munafiqūn (hypocrite)." As for as the duty of Muslims to conduct Jihad. This again is not cut and dry as there are many disagreements on what Jihad is. There is no doubt whatsoever for any Muslim that defensive Jihad is absolutely mandatory. Even the Geneva convention allows for any sovereign nation to defend itself against an occupier. This however gets muddy when a war turns into an insurgency. However the belief in eternal offensive Jihad is one that is not universally accepted. The main spread of Islam was not done during the lifetime of Mohammed, but rather during the reigns of succeeding Caliphs. Mohammed's primary goal was the conquest of Arabia which consisted of Pagan, Christian, Sibian, and Jewish tribes. Nevertheless after his death, Islam was spread and in much of the case, it was by the sword. Even so, it is very clear in Islam that the religion can not be forced upon someone. Below is a huge list of Ayas from the Quran that support this (just skim over this as it is long):
Now however, a Wahhabi extremist scholar will dismiss many of the above verses through the concept of "abrogation" in which later "Verses of the Sword" overrule earlier verses that say good things about Jews and Christians. The idea of abrogation is not universally accepted by Muslim scholars and there is vast disagreement even amongst those who accept abrogation over which verses are replaced (and thus nullified) and which are not. There is only one Hadith, to my knowledge, that supports abrogation. The main argument against abrogation is why any of the earlier verses were even allowed into the Qu'ran if they are essentially meaningless. What you will find is that within some branches of Sunni Madhaabs (schools of thought) such as many Hanafi and Sufi scholars, you will find interpretations based upon historical context rather then on blindly following verses out of context to what was going on at that time. For example Surah 8 was revealed during the battle of Badr. Surah 47 was reveled during the period in which the Muslims were under threat of extinction by the then polytheist Meccans. In addition often verses are quoted from the Qu'ran out of context such as quoting one verse that sounds very militant, but not quoting the verses around it that order Muslims to respect and not to break peace treaties with non-believers. When it comes to the topic of Dhimmitude, again things get a bit complicated and not all that clear cut. This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. To this day, Muslims respect St. Catherine's and have never touched it during all the wars in that region because of the protection it was granted by Mohammed. The Qu'ran supports the section of that treaty about Christian women when it says: Qur'an 5:5 This was in part due to the Quran ayas (verses) and verses in hadiths that show that Mohammed respected Jews and Christians who were pious and righteous people which is why it is forbidden to kill the clergy of other faiths during war unless they openly take up arms. In addition, the Torah and Bible can not be burned by Muslims as they respect the books as having "some" truths in them while they believe other parts were corrupted over time. It is this strain of Islam that you see plastered all over the news and whose teachings are translated into English and widely used on almost every neoconservative site and by almost every neoconservative "self-proclaimed" expert on Islam. Robert Spencer's site, "Jihad Watch" is a prime example. What is ironic is that they tend to completely ignore moderate traditional scholars who disagree with these extremists. They also refuse to publish the counter-arguments sent to them by anti-extremist Islamic scholars. You ask where the voices are of these moderate Muslim leaders speaking out against terrorists and extremism. Their voice are everywhere, but as I mentioned in my post, the media is almost completely ignoring them. Peaceful Muslims are boring. They do not fall in line with the perception that most Americans have of Muslims and they do not draw viewers. Fear is what draws viewers regardless of what the subject is. Next time you watch CNN or FOX news, I recommend keeping a score sheet on the number of stories that make you feel worried or fearful whether they be about getting fat, getting cancer, crime, terrorism, global warming, etc... You will quickly see what I'm talking about. 1. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf (Zaytuna Foundation and one of America's most respected Islamic scholars) etc... etc.... Now is everything cut and dry? No. Many Muslims contradict themselves by being against bombings in Europe and America and yet supporting suicide bombings against Israeli civilians. Not all do, but its not uncommon. Some scholars also make a distinction between a terrorist and a Muslim on Jihad who is fighting according to Islamic rules of Jihad and only attacks enemy soldiers in a war of defense. So for example they would not call an Iraqi group who only attacks American soldiers as terrorists as long as they do not purposefully or carelessly endanger the lives of civilians. Furthermore I do not advocate being naive about the goal of a great number of Muslims to bring Shariat law into non-Muslim nations by using democracy as their tool. This wouldn't happen in America due to immigration patterns and projected growth of Islam in America. However in Europe, this is a reality for some countries and their politicians need to stop being so naive about that. They need to seriously look at creative ways of nipping that problem in the bud such as by curbing immigration, passing laws making it easier to deport militant immigrants, and establish Islamic counter-extremist schools that show how most secular laws are in accordance with moderate interpretations of the Shariat or that they are at least "in the spirit of Shariat law." European Muslim extremists need to be educated in how the very laws they seek to destroy are what give them the freedom to voice their religious beliefs. I am not ignorant of the Islamic practice of Taqiyah however with moderate traditional Muslims, it is ONLY applied to save one's life or the lives of fellow Muslims. Unfortunately Qutb'ist scholars of the Islamic Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda, and Shi'a extremists have expanded this concept to mean deception in all forms including in the role of committing a terrorist attack by eating pork, drinking alcohol, and basically pretending to be a sinful non-believer. It is an easy concept to refute theologically in Islam. However aside from Islamic conferences here and there and in Islamic theological web sites that bore the average Muslim, such beliefs are not challenged. This is where the US and European governments could do an enormous amount of counter-propaganda against such illegitimate ideologies with the support of respected traditional scholars. If we do not do more to fight against this type of extremist theology using traditional Islamic theology to counter it, we will see MANY more terrorists like those doctors who launched those attacks in England. You do not have to be uneducated to be brain washed. Do you remember the Heaven's Gate Cult that killed themselves in California? Most of their members were highly educated and included former doctors and lawyers who went as far as castrating themselves for the sake of purifying their soul. They then were brainwashed into believing that the Hale-Bop comet was their ticket to heaven if they killed themselves as it passed close to the earth. Anyone can become susceptible to having their religious beliefs (the core of many people's belief systems) manipulated and used to get them to do horrible things. If you talk to Islamic extremists you will find that they are deeply pious people who truly believe that they are warriors of Allah and protectors of their faith against the giant satanic forces of Israel and the United States. They truly believe that we are trying to destroy their religion. That is an extremely dangerous belief that we know is utterly wrong. Yet our State Department and media does very little to refute that belief. We could do MUCH more in that effort if we so desired. Sadly the political willpower is not there. Such policies do not get votes. My only hope is that this attitude will change and that more Americans both conservative and liberal will begin to use this strategy to counter and de-legitimise Islamic extremists all over the world through the use of wide spread multi-media counter-propaganda that is grounded in Islam and promoted by Islamic scholars. About Saudi Arabia and tolerance. I lived there in the early 80's and went to Christian church services held in a movie theater at the old USMTM compound in Riyadh. You can have a bible there, you just can't distribute them to non-Christians. As for going to Mecca and Medina, for a non-Muslim that's not a big deal. Aside from curiosity, there really isn't any need to go there unless you are a Muslim. You can travel in the rest of Saudi Arabia, however some parts are a little dangerous these days. I was lucky that I was able to travel all over Saudi Arabia and I experienced the most amazing hospitality by Saudis all over especially by Bedhoin tribesmen. I don't support how they treat women, but neither do many fellow Muslims in other countries. With that said, things are gradually changing as female Islamic scholars begin to assert their rights given to them according to Shariat Law. In Morocco for example they have appointed female Islamic scholars to combat the influence of wahhabism in Islamic interpretations about the rights of women. Malaysia and Indonesia have similar prominent places and important roles for female Islamic scholars. As for the 4th of July and Freedom, it is important to not compare our forefathers and Muslims. They both have profoundly different historical and cultural experiences. However there are some similarities. Muslims do want to fight for their freedom. But it is the freedom from the West in our interfering with how they want to run their governments and practice their religion. I will be the first to say, that I do not support blindly forcing democracy into that region. Nations rarely become democracies overnight. If we, for example, forced Egypt and Pakistan to have democracies today, we would see Islamic radicals immediately come into power as the majority. When the time is right, I think that they will move towards democracies. But it must be at their own pace and their own time when their people are willing to fully fight for it. At the same time, we must improve relations with the Islamic world so that, WHEN they do develop democracies, we will not have to worry about them being a threat to us. We will be their partner in democracy. There will be disagreements in human rights issues. We have those problems now with our new buddies in communist China and Vietnam. But those human rights issues are slowly being addressed as they have been slowly in the Islamic world. Those issues will never be solved by using military force. That will only get a radical reaction that only feeds extremism which is what we are seeing happen in Iraq and Afghanistan. Chris G. Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments". << Previous Comment Next Comment >> Reader comments (234) on this item
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