Guiding the perplexed, our dear Dave! The Easter Bunny and Winged Flying Mules and Goats that eat holy books

Submitted by dhimmi no more (United States), Nov 22, 2021 at 10:30

Our dear Dave wrote:

>Dhimmi no more,

Yes our dear Dave

>The seventh century documents do tell us of a very well organized and thought out campaign.

Really? Can you provide us readers with a link so we can read such "documents"?

Dear readers: You can read all the extant "documents" written in Arabic from 632 AD when Abul Qasim aka Muhammad died until 692 AD (when al-Masjid al-Aqsa was built) and all extant "documents between 692 AD and the Abbasid revolution in 750 AD.

You can find them in Hoyland Survey available at amazon.com

The reader would realize that no one can reconstruct the history of very early Islam by reading the available extant "documents." This is why Hoyland wrote his book where he provides the readers with the extant "documents" written by non Muslims (Syriac, Jewish, Armenian, Coptic etc... writers that witnessed the rise of what became Islam). And this is why Patricia Crone wrote here outstanding book "Hagarism" where she examined the literary sources written by non Muslims. And it went down hill when she tried to reconstruct what really happened.

John Wansbrough was critical of using non Muslim sources to reconstruct what really happened. His review is available online and Fred Donner wrote in response: "the practical implications for the modern historian are that we cannot use the Islamic to reconstruct Islamic origins (Why? Because the Islamic sources are very late, they are tendentious and "Salvation history" or pious fiction) and should look elsewhere for our evidence or quit trying altogether."

Wansbrough made it very clear that looking elsewhere is futile.

Did you get this one our dear Dave?

In short we just do not really know what really happened about the origins of very early Islam

Did you get it so far our dear Dave?

If your question is did Muhammad exist? Patricia Crone believed he existed. There is no doubt that there is a founder for any and all religions, he is a man who starts the spark of what would become such religion be it Islam or any other religion.

However, as Patricia Crone has written: "Religions do not spring fully fledged from the heads of prophets" and they are in fact inventions of the pious in later times.

If the historical Muhammad (aka Quthm aka Abul Qasim aka Ahmad oh and he has 99 names and you can google them) is to come down to earth on his Flying Mule with wings, I suspect that he will not recognize Islam today

And by the way and for Allah's sake, Muhammad died in 632 AD and he did not witness the Arab/Muslim invasions that started in 633 AD and the goal of these invasions was LOOTING and what was better than stealing a goat from the infidels so the pious can drink the milk of the goat, feed the goat holy books and eat the goat and use it as, and you must pardon, an object of affection.

> I'm not qualified to say that it was THE Muhammad that led them, but whoever it was, was ingenious and could certainly unite and motivate people.

I'm sure you agree with me that a man and a deity who tell their followers that their reward for LOOTING others would be blonde women and slaves and property, they (Muhammad and his deity) will find lots of followers and not just Arabs but natives who would love to join in looting of their own people and this is indeed what happened

You call it "genius"! I call it barbaric.

> Let's not let our disdain for the current version of Islam blind us to this awesome achievement and its implications.

So murdering 80 million Hindus, your ancestors, because his god told him to "kill the idolaters" is an "awesome achievement? Are you serious?

And by the way, without the smart Persians, the very smart Nestorians and Jews, and the Greek learning oh and Hindu mathematics (eg: Zero) there would be no Islamic civilization

> I've often heard people ask "What went wrong?" when pondering the decline of Islamic culture.

In guesses why? I will be waiting

> There is evidence that the later introduction of religious intolerance in narrowing the criteria for membership as a "Believer" by the Abbasids seems like a credible candidate. Great empires and civilizations often fail when their foundational concepts become corrupted. Islam is no different.

gobbledygook

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