Mansoor: Check what you teach your children in your madrassas and schools to understand what is happening in Pakistan

Submitted by Plato (India), Mar 30, 2009 at 08:55

Mansoor, to keep this short I have avoided answering where Grand Infidel has taken up your claims.

>>Plato you wrote!

"Is that why Allah is trying to destroy Pakistan from within? Could you ever have imagined Muslims will be killing off each other in the land of the pure?"

Every true Muslim has to pass a tough test from Lord.<<

Is Allah testing Pakistani Muslims by having other Muslims kill and maim them and their children? Just this Friday Muslims blew up a mosque. A mosque for Allah's sake, killing nearly 70. And just today (30/03/09) terrorists bred in your madrassas and schools were seen merrily shooting up your police academy. You do have a great God, to look up to!

>>Pakistani nation is going through a very tough phase though the world is pointing fingers that Muslims are killing each other but the inside story is totally different.<<

The world is pointing fingers at Pakistan because Pakistanis are themselves responsible for creating Taliban (with some help from the CIA, probably, during the Afghan war) and now they are trying to devour you.

Muslims are killing each other because killing and hate is what you teach not only in your madrassas but even in your regular schools. I remember posting a detailed report by a Pakistani NGO which analysed the contents of your textbooks. But here it is again, go through it carefully.

http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf

This hate education is why you are here posting replies which talk of smashing of skulls eating bullets and washing your hands in blood. You probably studied and internalized the lessons that this report talks about regarding Hindus, unbelievers, and Jihad. Unless you change what you teach in your educational institutions Pakistan will remain a victim of its own terrorists. Hate will not be denied its ration of blood, even consuming the mother who nurtured it.

>>This part of the world which we call Sub Continent and the country which we call land of pure "Pakistan" enjoyed a peaceful period till the time the then super power U.S.S.R (India's most favorite partner) invaded Afghanistan.<<

Pakistan was born in blood (so too India) and no sooner it was born it set off on the Kashmir adventure by sending in armed tribals to take over the disputed territory. You then fought us in 1965 and then your bloody rule in East Pakistan ended with the division of your country. Your General Musharff then went into Kargil and got a bloody nose. But he came to power because of it. Now your country is slowly being eaten up from the inside by the cancer that was planted in your body politic by the politics of religion which calls for hatred of other faiths especially of idol worshippers.

>>The invasion was though very calculated and had aims to reach the warm waters of the gulf region through Pakistan, things never worked that way and the whole adventure ended with the sad demise of U.S.S.R. The aftermath of Russian Invasion was completely a tormented Afghanistan and extremely disturbed Pakistan due to influx of huge population of Afghanis as migrants. Since Pakistan had long and mountainous borders with Afghanistan, it was impossible to stop the influx of Afghans into Pakistani cities.<<

Now that the Soviet Union has been defeated with the help of the CIA why have your madrassas started exporting terror to other countries? Because of your bloody rule in Bangladesh we also supported nearly 10 million Bengalis but now they are back where they came from and we have not used that as an excuse to destablise Bangladesh or any other country for that matter.

>>My point is that the suffering of the people of this region is due to foreign aggression and misdirected adventure of the Super Powers.<<

The Superpowers can be blamed only for a minor part of our problems. What do the superpowers have to do with your harassing the Ahmadias, or the killing of Shias and Muhajirs? The superpowers did not plant verses which call for killing and fighting unbelievers like 9:111 or 9:29. As good Muslims the followers of islam also pay heed to these verses and are glad to fight and kill people they consider to be unbelievers for the reward that is promised by their god.

>> Don't blame Islam about the problems which had risen after your own mistakes and conspiracies. All the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan are in extremely revenging mood!<<

It did not take you long to get back to your smashing of skulls and washing in blood! Deal with verses like 9:111 and 9:29. That is where the real conspiracies lie.

>>Don't blame when you find your own house burning now due to your atrocities committed by your old and new masters I mean USSR and now USA.<<

Our houses burning!? We are going to have a free and fair election in a month. There is some smoke here and there which will clear after the elections are done with and a new government formed.

>>Many times in the last few years I gave specific answers to your similar questions. But I think you love to repeat the same questions again and again and again.<<

If you have given replies then you could at least have cut and pasted them here for your readers. Even in this reply all you are doing is blame the superpowers for the trouble you are in now. You are unable to look inward and see that the hate that is contained in Islam (read your school texts, the Koran and hadith for proof) for others is eating you up from within.

>> Muslims are not violent, I totally disagree.<<

I take you really mean Muslims are not violent. If that is what you mean then the Muslims are in total disagreement with the Koran. For the Koran tells them to be violent. 9:111, 9:29 and in many other verses.

>> I never saw you condemning attacks on Gaza where numerous infants died and many were brutally bombed to death.<<

I condemn the attacks on Gaza where innocent civilians died. I also condemn the genocide in Darfur. Why have not Muslims come forward to condemn this Muslim atrocity against other Muslims?

>>Indian Government and Hindus mostly supported mass killings of Afghanis.<<

This is really news to me. Our media has done a good of censorship since only Pakistanis have that information. Can you elaborate on this mass Indian support for mass killing of Afghans?

>>The faces of Ram Sena, Bajrang Dal, VHP are extremely black when it comes to atrocities against Minorities specially Muslims ad Christians.<<

They are indeed black. Every right thinking Indian in the media, in politics, and intellectuals condemn these organizations and when they exceed their limits they are jailed. Check what Pakistan did to the Taliban in Swat, NWFP etc. who beat up or kill women for venturing out without hijab or without an approved male escort.

>>You repeat few cases of crimes committed by people who claim to be Muslims but are going away from the original teachings which say that killing one innocent person is like killing of whole humanity.<<

Mansoor, why are you being dishonest with this claim about Islamic teaching. The verse in question as has been pointed out several times here refers only to the children of Israel: [5:32] Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.

When will be Muslims be honest for once and admit that this verse applies only to Jews?

>>What we see suicide bombers, terrorists and extremists are the outcome of your own aggression against Islam. Be it in Afghanistan or Palestine or Lebanon or Kashmir

Why have you left out Pakistan where the most killings take place now? Or Sudan and Somalia where Muslims kill each other. Was the suicide bombing that took place this Friday because of Indian aggression against Islam?

>> When you call Quran has verses to kill infidels, try to read them in context that it was allowed to kill infidels who expelled the Muslims from their houses and who initiated aggression against the Muslims. You will once again shout and will try to turn the matter to another direction.<

This claim that Muslim were expelled from their homes and that the Qureish initiated aggression against the Muslims is another very dishonest Muslim claim. To show the dishonesty in this claim I will use a source trusted by Muslims.

Here is what Martin Lings, the much acclaimed modern biographer of Muhammad says in "Muhammad, His Life based on the Earliest Sources", published by Inner Traditions International, Rochester, Vermont, says:

Page 52: "…Revelation continually enjoined patience upon the Prophet and therefore upon them. 'Bear with patience what they say, and part from them with a courteous farewell, 73:10 and also Deal gently with the disbelievers, give them respite for a while', 76:17.

Read the underlined words. Allah's (i.e Muhammad's) aggressive intent is clear from the underlined word. The respite for the unbelievers is only for a while i.e. until the Muslims gain armed might.

Lings continues: "This case of violence had been something of an exception on both sides, for Quraysh as a whole were disposed to tolerate the new religion, even after the Prophet openly proclaimed it, until they saw it was directed against their gods, their principles and their inveterate practices…..they came to him (Abu Talib) again and said: "O Abu talib, thine is a high and honourable position among us, and we have asked thee to hold in check thy brother's son, but thou has not done so. By god we will not suffer our fathers to be insulted, our ways scoffed at and our gods reviled…..

Here is the great Prophet insulting and reviling the religion of his forefathers and nothing really happened to him. Why do Muslims now insist on killing anyone who even mildly question your prophet?

Page 53 "…But this year pilgrims would hear their gods insulted by Muhammad and his followers, and they would be urged to forsake the religion of their forefathers…."

Mansoor, will you countenance anyone coming up to you and insulting Allah and Muhammad?? Need I ask how you would react, my dear Mansoor? Would I be wrong to say it would be with smashing of skulls and washing your hands in the blood of the offender?

The Quraish reaction was far more civilized than that of Muslims.

Page 112:…(the second Aqaba meeting) Men if Khazraj, know ye what it means to pledge yourselves to this man (Muhammad)?" "We know," they said, but he disregarded them. "Ye pledge yourselves, " he continued, "to war against all men, the red and the black….."

Here you have it is in black and white. The Prophet is trying through his negotiations and treaties to end the respite from violence that was proclaimed in 76:17.

Page 132 "…But when Sawdah's (prophet's wife) house was nearly ready he sent Zayed to bring to Medina, and with her Umm Kulthum and Fatimah; and Abu Bakr sent word to his son Abdallah to bring Umm ruman, Asma and Aisha. At the same time Zayed brought his own wife Umm Ayman and their small son Usamah…."

What does this tell you Mansoor? If Muhammad and Abu Bakr and other Muslims could confidently leave their families and property behind in hostile Qureish territory, could the pagans of jahiliya have been as bad as they are painted to be by Muslims?

>>You raised the point that CNN or other media giants report as they see. Yeah it is like a statue's look. It can see but it can't understand. As a test case let us suppose that you and your most brutal enemy come face to face, your enemy slaps you, kicks you, beats you and insults you, but when you start kicking him and beat him media shows this picture as it happens. Nice Haan! The world would now call you terrorist, brutal assassin or whatever. Nice Joke Plato!! Do not see only one side of the picture try to use your brain too!<<

This is what I wrote: 'The CNN link you have given is a case in point. It is reporting on the haj and its significance to Muslims. CNN is one of the most powerful news channels. Do you see any propaganda against Muslims in this article? The vast majority of the media in the world is not trying to harm Islam, in fact most of them seem to swallow the propaganda put out by Muslims that it is a peaceful religion against the evidence before their eyes.'

You were the one who quoted CNN approvingly. Who is the joker now? You quote the western media when they speak well of Islam and you abuse them when they are critical.

>>About the increase in Muslim population you said "It is so because of uncontrolled births among Muslims and not because infidels are converting in droves". Please don't make me laugh, didn't you see the link I posted to you that speaks about converts but not about the birth rate in particular. You are eating nuts man!<<

For an answer check the growth of the Muslim population in India as compared to the Hindus. Or the rate of growth rates in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia and compare them to the average world rate.

>>You said "No one wants to interfere with Islam. It is Islam with its claim to being the only true religion and bidding to conquer all other religions that does not let other religions be. Islam began by abusing and ridiculing the pagan beliefs of Arabia. Why does Islam not leave other religions alone?

It is not the matter of calling someone's religion inferior or abusing. Islam fights to bring truth in front.<<

You have given us your interpretation of the two intolerant verses I quoted, 3:85 and 9:33.

What else is your refrain but the superiority of Islam? The truth that Islam fights for is the superiority of Islam. Islam claims to be the only true religion without a shred of evidence except what an illiterate Arab claimed was revealed to him by a very ridiculous being called an angel. You read what I have quoted above about how your prophet insulted the religion of his father and mother. You consider that truth can be established by insulting and reviling other religions? Yes you do. Only Islam thinks reviling other religions is a divine duty of Muslims. After all you are only following your great prophet.

>>We are not doing window shopping of religion. Today the criteria which people have adopted now is that which religion is more colorful, has traditional festivals, dances, songs and blah blah! The question arises, why we are wasting our time in such things.<<

Mansoor, have you asked yourself why you waste your time with wudu, prayer five times a day, fasting for one month a year and blood sacrifices. To please Allah? That is exactly what those dances and singers are trying to do in India.

>>I am not humiliating or defaming others' belief but please try to understand that the path which you have chosen is purely based on man made illusions with no support or evidence.<<

You are not? The Koran surely does humiliate and defame others' beliefs.

And what about your prophet who believed his own illusions to be true and you think that the path he showed you is the true path without any evidence to support it except Muhammad's words?

Islam is based purely on the illusions of one man, Muhammad. What support do you have for Muhammad's claim that he has been appointed the apostle of Allah? The book which this apostle himself claimed he received as an inspiration does not constitute proof. I can do the same as do many people even now. Why don't you believe their claims to be godmen, or godwomen or messengers of Allah?

truth.<<

We do turn from the truth of verses like: 9:111 which tells Muslims that if they fight and kill or are killed for Allah they are guaranteed a place in paradise where they can have their fill of women, wine and food.

>>May be you feel that we the Muslims are trying to distract you from true path, but in fact we are on the correct path.<<

Your prophet showed you the true path by insulting and reviling other people's beliefs. Will throwing dirt in the paths of other religions lead you to a cleaner path. The path that Muhammad showed you is as full of dirt as that of any other faith, if not more so.

>>We have found our true Lord, who is alone and the creator of the whole universe.<<

Yes indeed you have. Your prophet showed you the true Lord by insulting the lords of other religions.

>>He is there to rule, He is ruling since centuries. His designed system is working undisturbed since numerous centuries.<<

His rule of Muslims has deprived them of a decent livelihood in most countries. His rule has made Muslims more violent than the followers of any other faith.

>>When Allah outlines severe punishments to disbelievers it is all due to arrogance and stubbornness of those disbelievers who refuse to accept the truth even if it is completely proven.<<

We kaffirs are stubborn when it comes it comes to accepting Allah's truth that women are inferior to men and therefore can be thrashed. We are stubborn when it comes to Allah's truth that we can acquire slaves and keep slave girls and even sleep with them against their will or even if they are married and have living husbands. Want proof from the Koran, Mansoor? 004.024 YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:

>>He is all powerful and He will put the Kafirs into hell because they not only denied the truth, but humiliated with his verses, challenged his powers, gave dirty names to his beloved Prophets.<<

What about the Prophet humiliating the Meccans with his verses? Doe only Muhammad have that right?

If Allah is all powerful why does He not prevent kuffar??? It is Allah who humiliates with His verses. The Koran gives Jews dirty names and calls them apes and pigs and unbelievers the worst of beasts. The Koran wants the people of the book to be humiliated (9:29) and they are called dirty (9:28). The Koran also insults idol-worshippers by denigrating them at every possible opportunity.

>>They killed many of them and tried to kill many.<<

Name one prophet infidels killed. By Muslim claims even Jesus was not killed. He was replaced by someone else on the cross by Allah. In fact the prophets were responsible for the deaths of millions. Noah called upon Allah to destroy everyone but his own family. Moses killed a man with his own hands. Sulaiman like Muhammad was a warrior prophet and killed thousands.

>> They gave false attributes to him and called a human being as his son, they called angels as his daughters (Naoozubillah).<<

Sexless creatures also have offspring. Why can't Allah have sons and daughters? What is so terrible about it?

>>I think I have specifically discussed the core issue related to above verses in my previous paragraphs. This is Allah's world and only Allah deserves to be worshiped not the man made illusionary Gods and Idols.<<

You and your prophet have claimed the world for Allah. What if I claim the world for Satan and tell you that only Satan deserves to be worshipped because he defied Allah.

>>Allah's apostle destroyed all those idols at the time of Conquer of Makkah and the Idol worshiping is extremely hated by the Muslimds.<<

This is clear admission that Islam is an intolerant religion. Is it any wonder that Muslims tore down and desecrated the holy places of Hindus and Buddhists? Why do Muslims then dishonestly keep claiming that Islam is tolerant?

>>You asked "Tell us about some of the positive things ab out Islam."

Islam declares equality among the people living on earth.<<

What about infidels, what about slaves?, and what about women?

Are you saying Islam has declared infidels and Muslims as equal? LOL. Read this verse about what Allah thinks about the position of slaves:

016.075 YUSUFALI: Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.

Allah has also decreed that half of humanity is inferior to the other half so much so that the supposedly superior half can thrash the inferior half:

002.228 YUSUFALI: …... And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

>>Wealth, power, beauty is not the criteria of gaining importance in view of Allah, only "Taqwa" the consciousness elevates the level of the true believer.<<

Why does Allah then give the slave an inferior status, read 16:175 I have quoted above.

>>Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) never ran behind wealth, he devoted his life for the sake of Islam and worked for propagation and spreading of this only true religion.<<

If Muhammad did not hanker after wealth why and how did he maintain a large harem of wives and concubines. How did he give slaves to his wives and slave girls as presents to his favoured companions? Read Bukhari:

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 357:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

People used to give some of their datepalms to the Prophet (as a gift), till he conquered Bani Quraiza and Bani An-Nadir, whereupon he started returning their favors

>> He did that with help of Allah in mere 23 years time.<<

In ten years of preaching in Mecca when he did not have armed men at his command he managed to get only about 100 converts (about 10 a year on average).

After he became powerful in Madina he threatened, conquered and bribed people into accepting Islam:

Martin Lings again on page 135: " Permission is granted unto those who fight because they have been wronged….for no cause other than for saying: Our Lord is God. (Plato: Mansoor you say above that is not what Muhammad did, he went about systematically abusing and reviling what sacred to the pagans) The Prophet had received this Revelation not long after his arrival in Medina. He knew moreover that permission was a command, and the obligation of war had been stressed in the covenant with the Jews. But for the moment there could be no question of anything but raids….."

Can you still insist that Islam is a religion of peace, Mansoor?

>>The beloved Prophet did not leave any towering castle, nor a treasure vault or historic monument or statue of his to be remembered.<<

Perhaps not. But he left a legacy which requires his followers to kill and silence anyone who criticizes him. He also left a legacy which requires his name to be joined like a shadow with that of Allah. He left a legacy which left followers in superstitious awe and fear of him. How many people can claim such an awesome and awful legacy?

>>This shows that he was not after his personal advertisement or any kind of wealth.<<

He advertises himself in the Koran constantly. He has Allah send His personal greetings and that of His angels in the Koran.

033.056 YUSUFALI: Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

>>He did that for one and only true Allah. Allah acknowledged his efforts and declared him the Best among all the mankind.<<

Is that why Allah the almighty with no needs personally salutes Muhammad in the Koran??

>>I love my Prophet he is above all the dirty allegations people try to level against him.<<

The dirty allegations are by his own faithful followers. The Muslim sira and hadith compilers thought they were doing Muhammad a favour by reporting faithfully all that he did and said.

>>…... Whatever he says and whatever he asks us to do is perfectly backed and endorsed by the Lord. …<<

How do you know the Lord endorses what Muhammad says? It is only Muhammad's claim that Gabriel gave him messages from Allah. What proof do you have for Muhammad's claim. Were you or any others listening in?

>>With the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Very-Merciful.

[66:1] O Prophet, why do you ban (on your self) something that Allah has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is Most-Forgiving, Very-Merciful.<<

When the Prophet's libido could not be restrained any longer regarding Maria He had Gabriel give him this verse so that he could get back into Maria's bed. There is another interpretation that this verse pertains to the prophet taking an oath not to take honey and he told Aisha and Hafsa not to tell anyone about. This sounds weak as taking an oath not to take honey hardly needs to be kept secret unlike his being in caught in bed with Maria during Hafsa's turn and the prophet being chastised for it.

>> [66:2] Allah has prescribed (the way of) absolution from your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the All- Knowing, the All-Wise.<<

How convenient. Now the Prophet (and Muslims) can tear up oaths and other commitments as Allah has given him special permission to do so.

>> [66:3] And (remember) when the Prophet told one of his wives something in secret. So, when she disclosed it (to another wife), and Allah made it known to him, he told (the disclosing wife) part of it, and avoided another part. So when he informed her about it, she said, ―Who told you about this?‖ He said, ―I was told of it by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware. [66:4] (O two wives of the Prophet,) If both of you repent to Allah, then (your conduct calls for it, because) your hearts have departed from the correct way. And if you back each other against him (the Prophet), then Allah is his supporter, and Jibra'īl (Gabriel) and righteous believers, and after all that, angels are his helpers. [66:5] It is hoped that, if he divorces you, Allah will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive to Allah, believing, devout, penitent, steadfast in worship, fasting, previously married and virgins.<<

Why does Allah waste His words on the private life of the prophet?

>>[66:6] O you who believe, save yourselves and your families from a fire, the fuel of which is human beings and stones, appointed on which are angels, stern and severe, who do not disobey Allah in what He orders them, and do whatever they are ordered to do. [66:7] O you who disbelieve, do not make excuses today. You will only be recompensed for what you have been doing.<<

Allah is asking believers to educate their families to adore Him as otherwise they might land up in Hell.

>>As for the example of Muslim Rulers what could be a better example than of Hazrat Umer bin Khattab.<<

This was the man who was ever ready to chop off people's heads to please the prophet. The site you have posted contains the usual Islamic hagiography. He is also the caliph who is supposed to have promulgated the notorious Pact of Umar.

>>I can only pray to Allah that the challenges you made to Allah may come back to you. You would one day be able to understand that you were wrong and you disrespected the Creator of the World.<<

Who will not disrespect a being that claims to be all-merciful but abuses and threatens His own creatures for the idiotic crime of joining anyone or anything else with His name?

>>Allah has extremely better rewards for us in Paradise. He has best partners ready for us, he has the most amazing liquor ready for us, gardens and palaces and much more.<<

Buxom ladies, boys like pearls, wine, food all in abundance all for being faithful to Allah. Does this not sound more like a bribe. For the heavenly denizens should have much superior stuff (whatever that is) than earthly pleasures multiplied manifold. And all those people who populate the opulent palaces in heaven will they be people with feelings or just robots?

>> We do not need to pay anything for that, just obey his commandments sincerely and build our belief stronger.<<

If this not bribing what else is it?

>> In our lives Allah has granted us so many things which we cannot repay. We are taking breath, no matter we believe him or not, he never declared that oxygen is free Muslims and disbelievers have to pay tax for its use.He never minimized the fertility of lands we possess. We the people of the world use daily huge quantity of meat, eggs, rice, flour, fruits, vegetables etc etc. It is never reduced nor made scarce.<<

Providing all that stuff is no big deal for Allah. No one asked Allah to create us so that we are dependent on his munificence so that He can claim to be merciful etc, etc, etc.

>> The famine, the disease, the health problems and every bad thing which we see around is all due to our leaving the basics teachings which our Lord clearly mentioned in Quran the glorious.<<

Yes, Mansoor, all good things are from Allah and we are responsible for everything bad that happens. If your Allah cannot prevent the bad that happens to us why does He claim to be all merciful and all powerful?

Time for some tafsirs:

>>{O you who believe when you stand for prayer, wash your faces and your hands up to your elbows, and wipe your heads and wash your feet up to your ankles.} (Al-Ma'idah 5:6)<<

What about ones armpits, groins and our behinds which have gathered smelly sweat and leaked faeces in the anal region?

>>{Indeed Allah loves those who repent and those who keep clean.} (Al-Baqarah 2:22)<<

{There you will find men who love cleanliness and Allah loves those who are clean.} (At-Tawbah 9:108)<<

Indeed. But our intestines and bladder always carry some unclean waste products. We can never be clean on the inside, why does Allah worry about our outside?

Regards,

Plato

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