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My response to " Logic To A Point"

Reader comment on item: Islamist Turkey vs. Secular Iran?
in response to reader comment: logic to a point

Submitted by Michel C. Zala (Switzerland), Dec 21, 2010 at 13:37

<< His approach for the most part appeared to have been 'reasonable' and more laissez-faire than most muslims who come on here and insist that Islam is the 'supreme' religion, it should dominate>>

I returned to this forum just recently and am still in the process of digesting a ton of articles and comments. As far, as Havas is concerned, I do share your impression. His comments vs. Terror of muslim origin were however the most outspoken of any muslim I encountered so far. Considering the culture, where a cartoonist gets a contract on his head for depicting Mohammed (even in company with Jesus, Buddha and other religious figures), the willingness to speak out thus clearly against "the terrorist dogs", should be applauded as courageous. Just this one post was worth all my contributions. There might in fact be muslims willing to apply some introspection and self-critique. Most of all, here we found a bit of common ground and in the context of my MO, described in my earlier piece, that is a measurable outcome, which may even motivate other muslims to follow suit.

I remember, a few years back here in this forum, when I dared to mention some of our own fringes, as for instance the adamant creationists, who will, no matter the scientific findings, never ever bend in their fanatic hatred of all things Darwinistic. I left this forum disgusted due to being literally torn apart by my own, Christians after all.

I myself consider myself as a (moderate) Christian. Originating from a Jewish family, I was raised Roman Catholic (due to the fear of my jewish father, who simply could not find the courage to raise us Jewish anymore). Several years ago, my partner got pregnant and decided (for reasons I can not elaborate on here) on a termination of her pregnancy. While I personally could never and would never support abortion, and anyway would have loved to have a child with this woman, I nevertheless had to stick to my guns, a woman's right to choose, and supported her in any way I could in this difficult decision. It broke my heart, but I had to accompany her to the clinic one morning. Having your heart ripped out of your chests already, we found ourselves at the entry to the clinic harassed by a mob of so-called Christians, cheering, yelling, screaming at us, calling us murderers and worse. These were Christians, for God's sake, inflicting so much hurt and pain upon Christians.... When I see TV reports of the mob in Tehran, yelling death to all infidels, I can't help to feel reminded on that day. Whenever I encounter the mauling mentality of humans, no matter, where this happens, I feel compelled to speak up.

>>>> It seems though that in the case of Israelis - he's towing the Turkish line again on the deaths of the armed pacifists in welcoming party on the Turkish ship ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTmF3njCZf8) i.e. those killed in self defence by the Israeli boarding party - when the israelis realised they weren't going to be served tea and biscuits. Not that Israel can't be heavy handed at times - but given their tactics and attitude of their neighbours - who blames them?>>>>

I fully agree. Albeit, I find myself oftentimes in heated debates about America and Americans with my Swiss friends, during which I will defend my nation passionately. Sometimes, deep down I know they have a point, but find myself nevertheless hard-pressed to admit it. Funny enough, when debating politics with some of my democrat friends, I, the Republican, have no problem pointing out deficiencies in the American society in a highly opinionated manner. Being Caucasian, one knows never to call a black American the N word. Why ist it appropriate for blacks to call themselves Niggers without any ramifications? Only two examples in support of my notion that this is a purely emotional response, based upon patriotism and utterly normal understandable nationalism and am pretty sure that, amongst themselves the Turks may as well debate differently from any discussion with someone from the outside.

>>>However what irks me personally - is that many muslims use logic up to a certain point but go no further. e.g the koran is either 'perfect' - or it is not. >>>

I feel your pain and have a hard time myself with the fact, that muslims do not seem to be willing to question Islam, as we freely exercise (religious) criticism in the western culture. There seems to be no grey, only black and white. I can only explain it with a fundamental design flaw of muslim culture, where for centuries the population has being indoctrinated and impregnated with an autocratic way of thinking, as opposed to a pluralistic, democratic society with much more individual rights.

Generations after generations of muslims have been raised to never question the Quran or their religious (or even political or societal) authorities. I can only compare that to the state of our own medieval times before reformation and enlightenment. In that sense the muslim world has somewhat stagnated there. Science, social studies, law, some would say art and literature never found a breeding ground to evolve.

A good example for diverse development offers military history, where, in the west military leadership and strategy were oftentimes subject to civil debate and authority (Roman Empire), hence continuous improvement , heck, evolution was "designed in ". It explains the clear superiority of western warfare in comparison to all other cultural environments.

In that context I would like to reference the military history book " Carnage and Culture", in which Victor Davis Hanson makes a compelling argument, looking beyond popular explanations such as geography or advanced technology, and argues that it is in fact Western culture and values - the tradition of dissent, the importance placed on inventiveness and adaptation, the concept of citizenship - which have consistently produced superior arms and soldiers. He makes the case that armies cannot be separated from the cultures that produce them and explains, why an army produced by a free culture, will always have the advantage. The example of the battle at Lepanto (vs. the Ottomans), offers truly compelling evidence for the above mentioned differences between the west and muslim culture, where on the one side, there is debate, analysis and dissent, and on the other there is but the authority of the Sultan.

>>>Mo split the moon with his little finger or he did not. He married and slept with a 9 year old when he was 53 or he did not. He was responsible for mass murder or he was not. He was the last 'prophet' or he was not. indeed - he was a prophet or was not. There are no shades of grey here - these things either occurred or they did not.>>>

Above arguments do not hold water for me, as our own Bible is full of events, which can be questioned at best. As mentioned before, there are quite a few Christians who actually believe in Noah's Ark or Moses splitting the Red Sea, Jesus creating food out of nothing etc. I personally think that all these ancient documents are full of legends and parables. The problem lays with the interpretation of the content and degree of penetration of orthodoxy throughout the fabric of the society. where too many muslims seem to take the Quran verbatim, as opposed to the Christian world, where there is much more room for accepted interpretation.

>>The point is - at some stage for them logic goes out the window and myth and the handed down superstition of ages takes over. To seek out truth - by necessity one must drop one's preconceptions and previous beliefs. It really is a shame that muslim cultures completely discourage looking down any other avenue to such an extent that in many muslim countries people can become ostracized and persecuted. In fact - muslims in the west who dare to start exploring other philosophies and religions face repercussions in western countries from muslims maintaining the status quo.>>

I agree again. It is a vicious circle which can likely only be broken over time, inasmuch, as muslim minorities in the west will eventually merge with us, if they are faced with the dilemma of either integrating and assimilating or face legal consequences up to and not limited to deportation back to their countries of origin. This is, why I for instance supported the Minaret initiative in Switzerland and support clearly defined pressure on any minority to assimilate, or else. It is in our own hands to either support this development and the mentioned subsequent export of ideas and dissent back, or apply the kumbajah and multi-culti approach of appeasement and leniency towards erosion of our own identity, traditions and values by allowing any minority to change the society from within (eg Sharia Law in UK ). While I promote tolerance and respect in all dealings with the Turkish minority in Europe for instance, I adamantly promote harsh legal barriers to prevent any minority to establish enclaves and subvert western achievements from within.

In a way, you made my point precisely. Over centuries now Islam created and nurtured a rigid, stagnating, hierarchical structure, which is by now deeply entrenched in almost all muslim nations. Not only will the solution to muslim fundamentalism have to come from within Islam, it will to my opinion have to stem from muslims lving outside the confines of muslim nations and maybe some countries located in close proximity to the West or with enormously strong ties (family economical, strategic) to it, such as Turkey.

By embracing this large minority (tolerance, respect, politeness), while subjecting them equally to our own people to tightly defined societal frame conditions (secularism, enclaves, legal up to burquas and Minarettes), instead of on the one side appeasing them with a liberal kumbajah mentality (catering to every last need of any minority, such as schools, education, language, religion in this current climate of political correctness) and on the other indiscriminately villifying them all as subverting our traditions and values, we may actually contribute to reverse dangerous trends, such as currently experienced in Turkey. Yet another measurable objective I can ascertain.

>>This is the muslim stance - no matter that Jews have lived there and had it as their centre since at least 3500BC. The muslim claim to ownership is an emotional one - based only on emotion and not facts at all.>>

While I agree with you on the historical facts yet again, and consider for instance the notion of a Palestinian People as historically invalid (while I admittedly admire Arafats PR acumen to literally create such a people from thin air) in this case one could be mistaken to value the factual argument over the emotional. When too many people become emotional about a topic, it becomes a fact, we must deal with as such. Several hundred years of muslim occupation of these lands, building some of their holiest sites right on top of Jewish and Christian ones, have created a terrible dilemma. No matter, if historically righteous or not, fact is that millions of muslims consider Jerusalem as equally important and their own, as it is for Jews. And yes, they are extremely emotional about it, as if emotions in matters concerning religion or belief would not matter.

The reasons for the failing of any peace agreement for decades now are buried right here in this dilemma. Where emotion dictates, rational thinking goes out the window. Where fanatics dictate, only further conflict will be the result. Bar the creation of some form of Vatican like status for Jerusalem, freely accessible to all for woreshipping, I see no room for any compromise. The chances for such "revolutionary" thinking in either ISR or the fanatics of Hamas and company? 0%.

Not to mention, that the ever fueled conflict in Palestine lays smack in the middle of Iranian Islamist strategy, which is why they keep on fueling the conflict by supporting their proxies of the likes of Hezbollah, Hamas, Kassam Al Aksa, Fatah, etc. etc.

It is a vicious circle with, as mentioned in an earlier article, a cease-fire as best case scenario.

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (192) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
34000 Years of Bloodshed - Systematic killing of member of the same species - we are indeed unique. [443 words]Michel C. ZalaJan 3, 2011 11:15181493
2objectivity [451 words]havasJan 4, 2011 13:23181493
3Objectivity is in fact the problem [2947 words]Michel C. ZalaJan 6, 2011 14:24181493
6Michel is saying that there was really an Armenian Genocide and now he is saying that there is "utter chaos in" islam right Michel? [87 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2011 06:38181493
1no agreement [724 words]havasJan 7, 2011 16:34181493
9Real gems from our dear Havas and the religion of peace [576 words]dhimmi no moreJan 8, 2011 11:22181493
17The useful idiots revisited and read this Havas [197 words]dhimmi no moreJan 9, 2011 13:54181493
5The Armenian Genocide and those who deny it and shame on them [66 words]dhimmi no moreJan 10, 2011 06:46181493
3While we evidently must agree to disagree.... [3383 words]Michel C. ZalaJan 10, 2011 10:14181493
6The Armenian Genocide and those that deny it and the next victim of the Turks are the Kurds right Havas? [1096 words]dhimmi no moreJan 10, 2011 12:35181493
3This useful idiot [564 words]Michel C. ZalaJan 10, 2011 13:00181493
hatred [96 words]havasJan 10, 2011 14:56181493
7How about going back to central Asia where the Turkish barbarians came from? oh and good riddnace [172 words]dhimmi no moreJan 11, 2011 07:23181493
6The useful idiots revisited and read this Havas part deux [193 words]dhimmi no moreJan 11, 2011 07:38181493
2Tariq Ramadan and the useful idiots [27 words]dhimmi no moreJan 11, 2011 07:51181493
7Hate Turkish style [415 words]dhimmi no moreJan 11, 2011 09:34181493
4Helping the useful idiots [219 words]dhimmi no moreJan 11, 2011 16:32181493
an addendum [10 words]dhimmi no moreJan 12, 2011 08:04181493
2More help for the useful idiots [109 words]dhimmi no moreJan 12, 2011 16:26181493
Shallow knowledge of Islam ... [83 words]kamel KhalilDec 11, 2011 02:40181493
3But the Qur'an says that islam is the religion of the Hijazi Arabs only [530 words]dhimmi no moreDec 12, 2011 07:13181493
8One of the worst [133 words]TSDec 13, 2010 22:05180927
Whats your point? [11 words]gokJan 11, 2011 01:16180927
1To Myth, Grand Infidel, and Dhimmi [91 words]Barry BlackDec 9, 2010 16:08180819
5response [209 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 10, 2010 17:35180819
6A sincere question to Dr. Pipes [142 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Debanjan BanerjeeDec 7, 2010 23:31180775
More on the definition of secularism and democracy [253 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Debanjan BanerjeeDec 16, 2010 00:24180775
4Torture in the book of ignorance [104 words]dhimmi no moreDec 19, 2010 15:23180775
Ignore left-wing rant of Mr. Debasheesh [21 words]SBDec 26, 2010 01:45180775
Secularism is not Saintliness [175 words]Frank LukeJan 5, 2011 11:20180775
Islamic Changes Still Coming on Strong-Toward Fundamentalism [152 words]M. ToveyJan 6, 2011 19:32180775
A reply to Mr. Tovey [185 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 8, 2011 11:33180775
Heaven or Hell Not a Question of Human Secular Logic-Heaven is Not a Secular Place [1140 words]M. ToveyJan 10, 2011 19:32180775
My Reply to M Tovey--- Continued [623 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 17, 2011 22:56180775
Historisticity of the Holy Bible is Maintained [258 words]M. ToveyJan 18, 2011 19:40180775
Further on the Implications of Rejecting The Hebrew Holy Bible and Relations with Israel [723 words]M. ToveyJan 19, 2011 18:47180775
My Reply to M Tovey--- Continuing----3 [232 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 20, 2011 12:13180775
My reply to Mr. Tovey _Continuing---3 [411 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 21, 2011 23:49180775
1Pure Semantics - But Khomeini meant to be taken literally [896 words]Michel C ZalaJan 24, 2011 10:44180775
Answers of Truth Come From The Holy Bible-Therein Lies the Response All Should Seek After [570 words]M. ToveyJan 24, 2011 19:03180775
My reply to Mr. Zala [520 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 25, 2011 21:43180775
4More islamic comedy and Hypatia [438 words]dhimmi no moreJan 27, 2011 07:04180775
My reply to Mr. Tovey _Continuing---4 [615 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 28, 2011 21:01180775
1Rewriting History - Denial pure [1685 words]Michel C. ZalaJan 29, 2011 13:41180775
1A reply to Mr. Zala [540 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 30, 2011 12:13180775
7Islamic hypocrisy [373 words]dhimmi no moreJan 30, 2011 14:40180775
4Wishful Thinking - Just Repeating Lies Does not make The Truth [1392 words]Michel C. ZalaJan 31, 2011 11:51180775
Discontent in Egypt Emblematic of an Unbelieving World Not Wanting to Seek Jesus for Answers [1085 words]M. ToveyJan 31, 2011 12:18180775
More reply to Mr. Tovi continuing---3 [304 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 4, 2011 23:02180775
Seriously, Who In Government is Asking Jesus Christ About What to Do in Egypt, Turkey, Iran? Secularism and Islam Do Not Mix. [1168 words]M. ToveyFeb 7, 2011 12:13180775
Understanding the Purim as Deliverance from Hatred and Not a Reason for Hatred [436 words]M. ToveyMay 5, 2011 14:46180775
There is one other dimension of this story [481 words]Amitabh tripathiDec 3, 2010 04:21180667
1My point here [131 words]Debanjan BanerjeeDec 6, 2010 21:13180667
4Mr. Banerjee - Assange evidence for decaying western civil liberties? It's the horse behind the waggon. [2230 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 8, 2010 14:17180667
5great scholars?? [316 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 9, 2010 03:13180667
1Responsibilites of Liberty Not Embraced by 'Liberal' Sensibilties [621 words]M. ToveyDec 9, 2010 11:55180667
What are true "Freedom" and "Liberty" ? [206 words]Debanjan BanerjeeDec 10, 2010 02:12180667
Outstanding comment, Mr. Tovey. [243 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 10, 2010 10:02180667
7The mufti of Saudi Arabia is saying that jihad in only offensive holy war and that al-raqeeq or slavery is indeed part of Islam! How disgusting [605 words]dhimmi no moreDec 11, 2010 08:05180667
2Mr. Bannerjee, you do not know Calvinism [553 words]kepha horDec 12, 2010 11:12180667
Debanjan, your knowledge of Calvinism is 4th hand [716 words]Kepha HorDec 12, 2010 18:22180667
1Freedom and Liberty State of Mind Found in Love of God and Those Who Love God [1020 words]M. ToveyDec 13, 2010 12:27180667
What is the crime of Assange [208 words]Debanjan BanerjeeDec 16, 2010 13:23180667
@Mr. Zala [71 words]Debanjan BanerjeeDec 16, 2010 13:32180667
3The Qur'an says that Jesus is really god and it is not us kuffar that are saying that so do you disagree with your Allah? [99 words]dhimmi no moreDec 19, 2010 13:27180667
1Allegations Relating to the Alleged Crimes are Made Manifest by International Community, Media [1237 words]M. ToveyDec 20, 2010 11:45180667
1To Mr. Banerjee - In response to "Questions" - Why Assange is a criminal at least [854 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 21, 2010 16:09180667
A response to Michael C Zala [364 words]Debanjan BanerjeeDec 23, 2010 22:25180667
1Banerjee - Desk Jockey Propaganda vs. The Hard Brutal Reality [1221 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 29, 2010 12:01180667
The real hard brutal reality [626 words]Debanjan BanerjeeDec 29, 2010 23:18180667
1Futile Debate - but here a last ditch effort [1320 words]Michel C. ZalaJan 3, 2011 12:20180667
1Seeking Truth In Comments are Harder When No One Wants to Hear the True Answers [690 words]M. ToveyJan 3, 2011 19:38180667
It Ain't So Bad [136 words]Barry BlackDec 2, 2010 12:31180651
3some pratical sharia criticism [135 words]mythDec 4, 2010 05:17180651
2another funny guy [204 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 4, 2010 18:29180651
7The Islamic comedy and ridiculous Sharia [220 words]dhimmi no moreDec 6, 2010 07:45180651
5Turks in Austria [41 words]UgriDec 2, 2010 10:12180646
3WOW- amazing to watch! [126 words]saraDec 3, 2010 18:10180646
amazed at the rhetorical skills [115 words]mythDec 4, 2010 04:52180646
3doing them a favour [179 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 4, 2010 06:54180646
Osterreich [96 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 6, 2010 01:53180646
Battle of Vienna [168 words]UgriDec 6, 2010 05:03180646
WOWIE [22 words]Barry BlackDec 6, 2010 13:02180646
2Let us be careful, before damning the Turks - The Stadler Haymaker missed its target. [4306 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 6, 2010 16:22180646
analysis [167 words]havasDec 9, 2010 14:03180646
3Thanking Michel Zala [648 words]Erich WDec 9, 2010 16:02180646
to michel zala [406 words]havasDec 9, 2010 18:23180646
TX, Erich, I certainly understand your concerns, however, consider our own ideological tides [579 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 10, 2010 09:30180646
Mr. Havas Comment seems to support my arguments. [425 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 10, 2010 10:42180646
1Thank You, Mr. Havas, for your comment, which truly adds circumstantial evidence to my initial post [1535 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 11, 2010 12:48180646
7Islam and Turkey and speaking of victims and propagandists [1362 words]dhimmi no moreDec 12, 2010 09:04180646
4islam and terror [342 words]havasDec 12, 2010 13:23180646
5Love Turkish style [486 words]dhimmi no moreDec 12, 2010 15:06180646
5The islamic comedy goes on and on: The message and the source of the message [170 words]dhimmi no moreDec 12, 2010 15:15180646
4Our dear Michel and his little love fest with Kebab! [250 words]dhimmi no moreDec 12, 2010 15:29180646
2To Havas: we face similar problems - To Dhimmi: Chill, Dude, before you get a heart attack - [1954 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 13, 2010 08:00180646
5Our dear Michel and his little love fest with Kebab! part deux [861 words]dhimmi no moreDec 14, 2010 06:14180646
2Schrebergartenanalysten - Seelig sind die geistig armen [1130 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 14, 2010 12:15180646
2True representation [401 words]Erich WDec 14, 2010 19:08180646
3various [872 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 15, 2010 02:06180646
4Eddi el-3abita zummara! Oh darn it this is Arabic! [294 words]dhimmi no moreDec 15, 2010 07:34180646
1Mr. Havas - Thank You for one of the few clear muslim voices against terror [1548 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 15, 2010 12:35180646
Save yourself the trouble, Dhimmi, before your hands fall off. [80 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 15, 2010 13:59180646
from muslims point of view [827 words]havasDec 15, 2010 14:33180646
4Even Mehemt II al-ghazi was half Armenian! [197 words]dhimmi no moreDec 16, 2010 07:22180646
3Michel is running away [66 words]dhimmi no moreDec 16, 2010 07:28180646
2Self hate [198 words]dhimmi no moreDec 16, 2010 07:53180646
To Mr. Zala - I am an "American Muslim" living in Turkey [132 words]Zacharias C.Dec 16, 2010 07:57180646
2Origins [173 words]dhimmi no moreDec 16, 2010 08:13180646
2Erich - as usual reasonable and balanced [796 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 16, 2010 11:24180646
To the Grand Infidel [535 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 16, 2010 12:17180646
To Havas - Holy Cow.... I need to digest this one.... [76 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 16, 2010 12:29180646
1turkish genocide [480 words]havasDec 16, 2010 13:31180646
4dhimmi no more, Ianus, and the Exposure of Demagogues aka "Useful Idiots" [149 words]Young MCDec 16, 2010 16:51180646
2Havas is against Turkish terror? really? How about the Armenian Genocide? [26 words]dhimmi no moreDec 17, 2010 06:17180646
4Islam is the problem [198 words]dhimmi no moreDec 17, 2010 06:30180646
8Historical discontinuity or the concept of al-jahiliya and the likes of Havas [591 words]dhimmi no moreDec 17, 2010 07:23180646
2For the readers: Michel is running away part deux [110 words]dhimmi no moreDec 17, 2010 17:08180646
5Origins and Greeks in the Qur'an! Oh the Turks in the Qur'an? that is a different story [383 words]dhimmi no moreDec 18, 2010 07:22180646
2A little clue [381 words]dhimmi no moreDec 18, 2010 07:49180646
Thank you Mr. Zala for your detailed and accurate analysis [28 words]AnkaraDec 18, 2010 08:22180646
Questions for Dr. Pipes - Going forward, what now? Your suggestions for a western strategy concerning Turkey? [308 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Michel C. ZalaDec 18, 2010 09:20180646
3logic to a point [724 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 19, 2010 03:13180646
think again [378 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 19, 2010 03:56180646
2Eddi el-3abita zummara! Revisited [82 words]dhimmi no moreDec 19, 2010 07:09180646
To Ankara, Havas & Zacharia - TX for a sign of life [1011 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 19, 2010 09:09180646
4Oh the Turks poor babies they are humiliated and rejected! The Islamic CRUSADES and other sordid matters [578 words]dhimmi no moreDec 19, 2010 13:54180646
1an addendum [18 words]dhimmi no moreDec 19, 2010 14:03180646
1trends [491 words]Erich WDec 20, 2010 01:20180646
to the kafir [339 words]havasDec 20, 2010 03:31180646
3Michel and the truth [156 words]dhimmi no moreDec 20, 2010 05:50180646
to mr zala [440 words]havasDec 20, 2010 05:58180646
4Islam in Turkey and Turkish delusions [932 words]dhimmi no moreDec 20, 2010 06:38180646
2facts please Mr havas [994 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 21, 2010 03:27180646
7Shame [145 words]dhimmi no moreDec 21, 2010 06:49180646
6Our dear Havas the Qur'an says that you cannot be Muslim! [271 words]dhimmi no moreDec 21, 2010 07:08180646
1To the Grand Infidel.... Now that, Mate, is fun. First allow me to outline my individual Modus Operandi [741 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 21, 2010 11:07180646
1My response to " Logic To A Point" [2041 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 21, 2010 13:37180646
1To Erich - in response to "Trends" [166 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 21, 2010 13:55180646
3Modus Operandi? It is le Grand Delusion [501 words]dhimmi no moreDec 21, 2010 17:26180646
2comments on comments [1092 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 22, 2010 05:02180646
3Notre Cher Michel et Le Grande delusion part deux [232 words]dhimmi no moreDec 22, 2010 07:18180646
3Origins and Greeks and bad Roman dudes in the Qur'an! Oh the Turks in the Qur'an? that is a different story part deux [383 words]dhimmi no moreDec 22, 2010 13:24180646
5The source behind the source [453 words]dhimmi no moreDec 23, 2010 07:49180646
1To Mr. Havas - finally my response to the muslim point of view [1984 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 23, 2010 11:23180646
3thoughts on Christmas eve [1301 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 24, 2010 05:03180646
5He is a Sufi! This is as bad as it can get [153 words]dhimmi no moreDec 24, 2010 13:48180646
3Havas is against Turkish terror? really? How about the Armenian Genocide? part deux [55 words]dhimmi no moreDec 26, 2010 10:44180646
GIK - Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all [476 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 29, 2010 12:49180646
1Genocides - let's see [388 words]Michel C ZalaDec 29, 2010 13:09180646
at least 2 omissions! [52 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 30, 2010 03:12180646
4The Armenian Genocide [21 words]dhimmi no moreDec 30, 2010 06:35180646
3The Crusades? Let us see [56 words]dhimmi no moreDec 30, 2010 06:58180646
1Clarification on "Genozides" [172 words]Michel C. ZalaJan 3, 2011 10:32180646
3grave threats [330 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanJan 4, 2011 01:49180646
4You still did not answer my question [14 words]dhimmi no moreJan 4, 2011 06:40180646
4And more hypocrisy and this time the Muslim v. Christian crusades [168 words]dhimmi no moreJan 4, 2011 06:50180646
4Michel "deplores" the Armenian Genocide [64 words]dhimmi no moreJan 4, 2011 06:59180646
2Masters of genocide!! [144 words]JaladhiJan 5, 2011 14:43180646
1TX for the advertisement [394 words]Michel C. ZalaJan 6, 2011 15:06180646
2Teaching Arabic to wannabe Arabs [134 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2011 07:07180646
7Michel "deplores" the Armenian Genocide are you reading this havas? and cherry picking time [350 words]dhimmi no moreJan 8, 2011 06:43180646
Charles Taylor, Blood Diamonds, Islamic Socialism and the 'Green Book' [51 words]NellieApr 26, 2012 21:07180646
1Iran the Shias or Turkey the Sunni [206 words]BADec 1, 2010 21:51180632
1A thought on percentages, and a matter for inquiry [421 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Erich WDec 16, 2010 02:54180632
Good try [64 words]Sohel Ahmed BahjatDec 1, 2010 13:38180611
1Turkish domestic politics. [115 words]motokosomaDec 1, 2010 12:05180609
your turkey analysis not correct [385 words]meteDec 1, 2010 11:52180607
Selectivity [371 words]Erich WDec 16, 2010 03:52180607
true [21 words]havasDec 19, 2010 05:40180607
1Flawed Analysis [215 words]PaulDec 1, 2010 09:17180604
Very True! [8 words]MohammadDec 1, 2010 04:56180600
When the West cannot meet the East [184 words]NuritGNov 30, 2010 23:38180597
Iran teetering on the brink of "secularism" is a fantasy!!! [169 words]JaladhiNov 30, 2010 20:07180595
Islamo-fascism is evil; don't let it spread! [36 words]Maria Houser ConzemiusNov 30, 2010 18:12180593
The Hidden Turkey [153 words]Rebecca MouldsNov 30, 2010 14:04180587
Recognizing "hidden" Turkey [155 words]TedJan 12, 2011 00:02180587
9The Iranian Theocracy doomed? [1593 words]Michel C. ZalaNov 30, 2010 13:01180583
2Support Mr. Zala's view [115 words]hirenDec 2, 2010 11:10180583
1Could Turkey be converging towards Iran's theocracy??? [228 words]JaladhiDec 14, 2010 14:04180583
1To Jaladhi - Full Agreement - Why we can never allow for the Iranian Nuke [611 words]Michel C. ZalaDec 15, 2010 13:45180583
1Turkey has no oil [252 words]hamanaJan 11, 2011 09:54180583
Extrapolation is a mug's game, the wheel turns, and history springs surprises. [8 words]Abu NudnikNov 30, 2010 12:59180582
2Iran vs. Turkey [184 words]Ralph C Whaley MDNov 30, 2010 09:17180578
Turkey vs. Iran [150 words]Stergios BakasNov 30, 2010 07:58180576
Turkic one from China [18 words]DiliNov 30, 2010 07:25180575
2open your eyes [141 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 3, 2010 18:04180575
Interesting origin [91 words]Kepha HorDec 12, 2010 18:39180575
the immigrant mirror [104 words]mythNov 30, 2010 05:43180574
fed up [51 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanDec 2, 2010 04:04180574
Great article [78 words]John in Michigan, USANov 30, 2010 03:55180573
4W.Churhiil [185 words]ChurchillMar 24, 2011 16:06180573

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