Preincarnate messiahs (not), prophesies and the clueless West

Submitted by Michael S. (United States), Sep 20, 2014 at 04:23

Hi, Tovey

I think I have answered this, only dealing with some points.

You mentioned the "preincarnate Messiah". This is an extrapollation in meaning of the KJV mis-translation of

John 8:
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

But note,

Yahshua then resumed the context of his initial conversation by saying, "Before Abraham was, I am the 'coming' one." "was" is from the Greek "ginomai" meaning, "to come into being, to be born,... to arise." In the Greek, the tense of the word is NOT pure "past" tense. It is 2 Aorist, middle voice, infinitive, meaning past tense action without any indication that the act was completed. What Yahshua actually said 'literally' was, "Before Abraham "comes" to be born, I am he. In other words, before Abraham comes to be born (at his resurrection into eternal life), I am he, (the "coming" one)."
-- http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/I_AM.htm

What Jesus did here, was to emphasize that our important "birth" event is not when our parents give birth to us on earth, but when we enter into glory, into God's presence, with Jesus as our forerunner and OLDER brother. This is why it says,

1 Cor. 15:
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The issue, after all, was not whether Jesus had existed as the "preincarnate Messiah" (which he didn't say), but whether he was GREATER than Abraham. He said that he was indeed greater -- but not by his temporary, mortal humanity (in which case, Abraham was clearly greater) -- but by his eternal station in the Kingdom.

I didn't deal with this in my previous post, because this sort of thing usually ends in pointless shouting matches. I cannot shout here (nor do I want to), and Daniel does not want me to shout. Perhaps I could even convince you concerning the scriptures; but even if not, let's try not to rehash these things. As Paul said,

Rom. 14:
[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

You went on to say,

This was the dilemma of the rulers of the Judean province of Pilate's time; they could not recognize who Messiah was for they did not keep the heart of the law, only its legalistics.

The part, about hypocrisy in keeping the law, is a charge that is leveled even today, against ALL religious people, of all religions that have a code of conduct. I personally do not think this is why the religious leaders rejected Jesus. I believe those super-ego snobs rejected Jesus, for the same reason that Police Commissioner Ronald Burkitt did not like Police Superintendent Albert Tyburn, in "Heat of the Sun", namely,

"because you're not one of us and you never will be!!"

Jesus was low-born, and not the disciple of any well-known Torah scholar; yet he claimed to know things about God that they didn't. That's enough to lead most vain men to murder.

Mark 15:[9] But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?[10] For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.

I know this all sounds rather base; but that's what we all are: rather base. The wonder is, that God even pays attention to us.

Meanwhile, the West still has no coherent strategy in Iraq and Syria. Obama is trying to get Americans, Frenchmen and Brits to put their sons and daughters at risk for a far-away, confusing cause; and they rightly are not buying into it. I expect Turkey to move into the vacuum, as prophesied in Ezekiel 38.

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