Debanjan claims he is the next Theodor Herzl

Submitted by Shishir (United Arab Emirates), Jan 29, 2012 at 13:19

Shishir: You will forgive me if I dont take the word of a communist sympathizer like Steven Pinker at his word.

Debanjan: Can you please cite some solid proofs to support your allegation. You know it is the very same Anglo-Saxon tradition , that you support so vehemontly , tells that a person is innocent unless proven guilty.

Firstly:Why should insist on spreading misinformation.The author is Stephen Kinzer ,not Pinker.There was another British playwright with a similar name who I had in mind.Anyway this Kinzer fellow also was a critic of Cold War fought by America and as recently as January was making apologies for Castro run Cuba!Therefore a communist sympathizer

Debanjan:Anyways the thing to debate over here is whether Steven PInker is right in his views incriminating the establishments in Britan and USA regarding the overthrow of Mossadegh. Mr. Pinker's political affiliations hardly matters here.

Shishir:Actually a persons pro Soviets do matter a great deal when he offers opinions regarding pro Soviet agitators.

Shishir: "I would like to remind you that the surveying,discovery,drilling and rigs and other infrastructure were done overwhelmingly by the British and this was at the invitation of Iranians"

My Answer: Can you please prove to me that Iranians did invite the British ? Is the Anglo-Saxon oil corporation bribing few gullible heads of Iranian tribesmen become an invitation from Iranian people to the British to exploit their resources ?

Let us consider the records of Anglo-Iranian oil company in Iran. At the time of nationalization there were no Iranian engineers or technicians or system architects in that refinery. The only Iranians who were present were impoverished drilling and rigging workers , payed at the lowest level of the hierarchy. Can you please explain why the British did not bother to train or teach any Iranians as engineers or system architects ? Do you think making the Iranian people unable to run their own industry in their land is also part of the services the British did to Iran ?

Shishir: If the Iranians were unable to run their own industry,that is hardly the fault of the British.Both Soviets and Nazis had their eye on Iranian oil.Im not saying that the British were angels, but would rather have the Nazis have a go at siezing Iranian oil fields?

Debanjan:Now what about the balance sheets ? Do you know the British ensured that there were no Iranian board of directors present in the company ? Are you aware that Iranians did not have the right to audit any of the books of their own oil industry ? Are you aware that Iranians used to get less than a fifth of the total oil revenues from their own oil ? Are you aware that Iran could not consume a single drop of their own oil thereby ensuring no non-oil industry were established in Iran during the said period.

Shishir:I dont see why Iranians should be doing any of these things when Iranians did provide any expertise or investment in the extraction of the said oil?

Shishir : You think that with just one phone call to Stalin as you put it,the Soviets would send in the cavalry?Even if he wanted to(which you claim is the reason that he hadnt) ,that wouldnt happen!

My Answer : Owwww , and what exactly would stop Stalin from fulfilling the wish of Mossadegh had he made it in this case ? I am eagerly waiting for your answer here.

Shishir: No need to get excited.It is not my job to disprove your thesis but it is your job to prove yours.You need to info me with sources that Stalin was eager to fulfill Mossadegh every whim and desire.

Debanjan:Anyways I am still waiting for your arguments proving Mossadegh was a Soviet sympathizer.

ShishirMossadegh was aligned with the Tudeh party which was communist and openly pro Soviet.He instittued collectivist schemes such as abolishment of private farms and government ownership of land.This is one of the reasons he lost Shia support.

Shishir: I would like to remind you that the surveying,discovery,drilling and rigs and other infrastructure were done overwhelmingly by the British and this was at the invitation of Iranians.

My Answer : Are you aware of that the Chinese are talking about shoring up investments for infrastructure improvements in UK ? I am extending your above logic to say that all the money that the Chinese will be putting in UK should be completely owned by the Chinese. The Chinese would have absolute monopoly over the percentage of profits that would generate from this. There will be no non-Chinese labor , worker , engineer or architect employed in these projects and no Brit will be allowed to check the books. No British can be part of the board of directors of the projects. The running of the infrastructure and deciding of the toll taxes will rest with the Chinese and no Chinese citizen working for the projects in Britain should come under the jurisdiction of British law.

Shishir:That is between Britain and China to decide but seeing how British have technical skills ,capital,equipment and know how I doubt it would their share of the profits wont be as meager.

Debanjan:If you support the working of the Anglo-British in Iran then you should also support the stipulations regarding Chinese investment in UK infrastructure . Right ?

Shishir:Again that is an issue between UK and China!

Shishir:Your naivete is laughable.Just because something swears on the Quran why does that preclude him from being a Soviet sympathizer?

Debanjan : Ohh , now I have someone calling Mossadegh a person , "something". What should I call it ? Extreme creative efforts of your brain or just pen mistake ?

Shishir:Thats a typo.Relax.

Anyways , so even if we consider Mossadegh was a Soviet sympathizer , does that make it legitimate for UK and USA to overthrow him and replace him with a puppet tyrant ?By your own logic then considering the number of pro-Israel and anti-Islam politicians in UK and USA , it is high time that the Iranians try to throw out the existing systems in USA and UK and replace these with more democratic and Islamophile and Iranophile regimes , right ? I am just extending your logic further.

Shishir: Iran and other Islamists are already trying this thru stealth:Infiltration of academia,government,lobby groups,charity organizations,media and other venues.Not to mention possible Hezbollah bases in Mexico and Venezuala.The only reason that they dont do what you mentioned above is because they cant.When Muslims had the military power ,they never shied away from attacking Western targets.See Conquest of Egypt,Spain,Syria,Southern France,Italy,Ottoman conquest of Hungary and Balkans,Battle of Vienna,Lepanto,Barbary pirates etc etc etc

Shishir: Britian had protected Iran from Soviet aggression

My Answer : Ohhh then when the where were the British when the Soviets decided to invade and conquer the whole of Northern Iran during the second World war ? Was it also part of British plan for Iran ?

Shishir:I am talking about post Yalta period.Anyway your argument is as absurd as saying that if U.S wanted to save Germany from Soviets then why was East Germany under Soviet rule.You see where I am going with this?

Debanjan: Now tell me then why did Saddam not attack Iran when the Shah was in power ? Iraqis were having plenty of troubles over the waters of Shatt-AL-Arab as well as some border territories with the Iranians when the Shah was in power and Iraq and Iran almost went to war during 1974-75.

The Shah had provided support to the secular Peshmerga Kurdish guerillas in Iraq fighting the Bathist rule over there. But the Iranian Islamic republic had not done so.Whether you are aware of or not initially even Saddam had praised the Iranian revolution as both he and the Islamic revolutionaries had a common enemy , the secular Shah.

So tell me then why did Iraq exactly showed up the courage to attack Iran when Islamic republic came into being and did not attack when the Shah was in power ? It is clear that the US assistance to Shah had ensured Saddam fell in line. Only after Saddam was given assurances that US will not come into the help of the Islamic republic as they had come into the support of the Shah , he could conjure up the courage to attack the Islamic republic.

Shishir:The response to your needlessly verbose laundry list of incidents is very simple:A simple fact that you conveniently neglected to mention.The Shah's Iran was strong compared to Baathist Iraq.The Ayotallahs OTOH had purged the officers and the army in general upon taking power and the Arab world was terrified that the soft power of Shia revolutionaries would pervade their countries.So the decision was made by Saddam after encouragement from ARAB and not Western powers to strike while the iron was hot.If you are so upset about the invasion,take it up with Arabs not Westerners.Oh and btw Israelis provided tacit support to Iranians.Hope that confuses you some more.You dehumanize Arabs and deify the West when you imagine the former are unable to even tie their shoelaces without Western support!

Shishir: Hahahahaha!From one crackpot notion(Islam brining people together) to another!! Abrahamia indeed

Debanjan: People laughed at Hertz and others also regarding their dreams of a Zionist Utopia. I am hopeful that ultimately people in the region will realize that being divided from each other because of nationalistic and exceptionalist ideologies will not be good for their own advancements and developments. That will be the time when you will see my ideas becoming reality.

Shishir:No everyone laughs at only those like you who compare themselves to Herzl! Herzl's Zion was a practical ,not overly ambitious approach in the context of the spirit of nationalism that pervaded Europe after the Napoleanic invasion.Yours is an utterly nonsensical pipe dream.One would laugh at it if did entail sure genocide for Jews and Christians unless you would rather have them live like dhimmis

Shishir: Arab secular rulers like Gaddhafi,Saddam,Hosni et al hoarded their nations wealth and stored it away

My Answer: Owwww , now then why the West encourages them by allowing them to hoard their ill-gotten wealth into safe Western bank accounts ? It is really one year after the beginnings of the Arab Spring yet I have not seen a single report in the World media where any Western pundit have talked about giving back the Arab masses their wealth which were stolen from them by these tyrannical leaders.

Shishir:I dont know why you are howling in pain but whatever.Please provide evidence that the "West" encouraged them to hoard wealth and to my knowledge no Swiss bank or other accounts have Gaddhafi or Saddams wealth stashed away.Im all for releasing this wealth but you are looking in the wrong places ,the wealth is right there in the Arab countries and if you are not careful it will exit soon.See Egypt and the capital flight.

I believe that Arafats wife has almost 10 billion USD stashed in France ,please petition PLO to have the monies released.

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