To Scholar and to Randa

Submitted by Lisa (Canada), Nov 13, 2005 at 23:20

Scholar said
I find a lot of people's ignorance of the right teachings of Islam mind boggling, but when I notice their ignorance of their own history, I begin to understand.

Let me remind you of what Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) said about Non Muslim citizens "He who abuses a dhimmi [non-Muslim citizen] then I will be his rival and dispute him on the Day of Judgment."

Does such a teaching exist in Christianity or Judaism???"

There is no dhimmi in Christianity, all humans are alike, GOD in the bibles doesn't differentiante between a believer and non believer, between sinners and non sinners. Human has the tendency to feel superior if they worship GOD, the moment a Christian feels that he/she are better because they do their religious duties, or at the moment any Christian believes that he/she will go to heaven and others are not, then they are not following the main message of Christ. There is no concept of Ummah in Christianity, every human being regardless of any kind of difference is son of GOD, we all belong to one GOD, the loving GOD.

Jesus said "love you enemies as much as you love yourself", "love your neighbour as much as I loved you", Jesus didn't say love your believer neigbour.

He also said "what is more greater than when someone forsake himself for the love of others"
In Quran however, "when a Muslim blood shed it is similar to killing all humanity" There is always distinction between believers and non believers even when killing is concerned. Quran distinguished and made it cleat that when a MUSLIM blood is shed it is like killing all humanity, Quran didn't say when a HUMAN blood is shed.

One of the suras in Quran says "It is forbidden in Islam to kill unless it is JUST", now what is considered JUST. JUST can be explained in so many ways depending on the situation. Example, suicide bombers in Palestine are considered in Islam resistance of occupation. Christianity looks at this situation there is no justification of killing people from both sides "Israelis and Muslims", and especially civilians. Rights can be taken and JIHAD can be done in a peaceful way to gain rights.

In Christianity (new testimony) killing is forbidden including for criminals. A criminal can be locked in a prison for all of his/her life but it is not permitted to take away a human life.

Scholar and Randa, Islam and Christianity is so much alike when it comes to being good to the poor, give charity, be good to the parents, to the weak, to the elderly, etc. Islam didn't bring anything new to humanity, the reason why Muhammad thought that Christianity was corrupted because he thought that Christians worship statues and believe in three GODs. We believe in one GOD the same as you do, Jesus called son of God not in a physical meaning, all of us are sons and daughters of GOD, the concept of GOD is the father because the father characters are wisdom, love to all of his children. Love in Christianity is not conditional, if a person is righteous doesn't mean that GOD will love him more than a sinner. It is not for us to decide who will go to heaven or will go to hell. We believe that if we go to heaven is out of God's love not because we deserve to go to heaven, whether for a Muslim, a Jew, Christian, Hindu, etc.

The concept of wars and defending Ummah doesn't exist in Christianity.

You have provided examples from history about how unjust Christians were when ruled minorities, I think I explained it well what Christianity is, there is no justification for unjust treatment or violence in Christianity even when defending ourselves.
However, if you want to choose this route then I can provide you with thousands of examples about how Muslims rules non Muslims not from history, but now in the 21st century. I don't even have to dig deep for such information

Scholar said
"The opinion of mainstream Islam with regards to Jews and Christians (and extended to other non believers) can be understood from the following section quoted from Wikipedia "Many non-Muslims used to live with Muslims under the banner of Islam for almost thirteen centuries. Throughout those periods non-Muslims used to have the same high standard of living as the Muslims did. They enjoyed equal rights, prosperity, happiness, tranquility and security. The Jews and Christians used to be called Ahl al-Dhimma, People of the Covenant. The Prophet said, "He who abuses a dhimmi [non-Muslim citizen] then I will be his rival and dispute him on the Day of Judgment." "

If Islam occupation was that good, how come Spanish and Portugees faught for hundreds of years to get rid of Islam occupation. I have mentioned in a previous post when Muhammad ordered to kill 200 Jew when they betrayed him but you didn't answer this, instead you start giving me examples from history about Christians. Would a messanger from GOD does that, please do not tel me he had to do this because he was a commander

Mr or Ms Randa said that Islam is about Human rights, lets look at what human rights are about:
1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood

2. Everyone is entitled to all rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status

3. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person

4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms

5. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance ".

6. Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Now look at women under Islam, women testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is restricted and watched, Muslim Women cannot marry a non-Muslim

Non - Muslims living in Muslim countries may not testify against a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammed who said " Two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia ", non _ Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build churches, possess Bibles etc.

Slavery is recognised in the Koran. Muslims are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves (Sura iv.3); they are allowed to take possession of married women if they are slaves (Sura iv.28); the helpless position of the slave as regard his master illustrates the helpless position of the false gods of Arabia in the presence of their Creator (Sura xvi.77).

Quite clearly under Islam, one does not have the right to change one's religion, if one is born into a Muslim family. Applying double standards, Muslims are quite happy to accept converts to their religion, but a Muslim may not convert to another religion, this would be apostasy which is punishable by death in most muslim countries. Here is how the great commentator Baydawi (c.1291) sees the matter: " Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever you find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard ".

According to Sura iv. 141: " Allah will not give the disbelievers triumph over the believers " Sura lxxiii.8: Force and power belong to God, and to His Prophet, and to believers ", Non - Muslims can not have certain posts. A recent example from Saudi Arabia makes the point. A group of Muslims working in a company owned by a Muslim were shocked when the Muslim owner appointed a new manager, who was a Christian. The Muslims demanded a religious ruling asking whether it was permissible under Islam to have a Christian in authority over them. Sheikh Mannaa K. Al Qubtan at the Islamic Law College of Riyadh declared that it was intolerable under Islam that a non - Muslim should wield authority over Muslims. He pointed to two verses from the Koran to back up his argument:

"Now about Scholar claim that why is Islam the fastest growing religion and why is it accepted by people in North America"

Statistics on conversions from Islam to Christianity, and therefore apostasy, are hard to establish for obvious reasons. There is, however, a myth that Muslims are impossible to convert or Islam is the fastest growing religion. On the contrary we do have enough evidence of literally thousands of Muslims abandoning Islam for Christ from the Middle Ages to Modern Times; the most spectacular cases being, amongst others, those of Moroccan and Tunisian princes in the 17th century, of the monk Constantin the African. Count Rudt - Collenberg has found evidence at the Casa dei Catecumeni at Rome of 1087 conversions between 1614 and 1798.According to A.T. Willis and others between two or three million Muslims converted to Christianity after the massacres of the communists in Indonesia, in 1965, described earlier [chapter x] In France alone, in the 1990s, there are two or three hundred converts to Christianity from Islam, EACH YEAR. According to Ann Mayer, in Egypt conversions have been " occurring with enough frequency to anger Muslim clerics and to mobilize conservative Muslim opinion behind proposals to enact a law imposing the death penalty for apostasy "[Mayer177]. Ms. Mayer points out that, in the past, many women have been to tempted to convert from Islam to ameliorate their lot. 2.5 million Russian converted from Islam to Christianity comparing to 2500 converting from Christianity to Islam. From Islamic resources, Muslims in Africa are converting from Islam to Christianity in a rate of 667 Muslim a day.

Those who convert to Christianity and choose to stay in the Muslim country do so at great personal danger. The convert has most of his rights denied him, identity papers are often refused him, so that he has difficulties leaving his country; his marriage is declared null and void, his children are taken away from him to be brought up by Muslims, and he forfeits his rights of inheritance. Often the family will take matters into their own hands and simply assassinate the apostate; the family are, of course, not punished. [Gaudeul]

In Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. In all three countries, the rights of their Bahai, Ahmadi and Shia minorities respectively have been denied. All three countries justify their actions by reference to Sharia. Christians in these countries are frequently arrested on charges of blasphemy and their rights denied.

Here is how Amnesty International describes the scene in Saudi Arabia: " Hundreds of Christians, including women and children have been arrested and detained over the past three years, most without charge or trial, solely for the peaceful expression of their religious beliefs. Scores have been tortured, some by flogging, while in detention... The possession of non_ Islamic religious objects - including Bibles, rosary beads, crosses and pictures of Jesus Christ __ is prohibited and such items may be confiscated. " AINO 62 JUly / Aug 1993

Similarly scores of Shia Muslims have been harassed, arrested, tortured and in some cases, beheaded. For example, on September 3, 1992 Sadiq Abdul Karim Malallah was publicly beheaded in al- Qatif after being convicted of apostasy and blasphemy. Sadiq, a Shia Muslim, was arrested in 1988 and charged with throwing stones at a police station, then of smuggling a Bible into the country. He was kept in solitary confinement, where he was tortured.

The situation of Ahmadis in Pakistan is somewhat similar. The Ahmadiyya movement was founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (died 1908), who is regarded as a prophet by his followers Amnesty International [ASA / 33 / 15 / 91] summed up their situation in this manner:

"Ahmadis consider themselves to be Muslims but they are regarded by orthodox Muslims as heretical because they call the founder of the movement al- Masih [the Messiah]: this is taken to imply that Mohammad is not the final seal of the prophets as orthodox Islam holds, i.e. the prophet who carried the final message from God to humanity. According to Ahmadis their faith does not involve the denial of the Prophet Mohammad's status because Mirza Ghulam Ahmed did not claim to bring a new revelation of divine law which could add to, replace or supersede the Koran. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed considered himself a mahdi, a reappearance of the Prophet Mohammad, and thought it his task to revive Islam. As a result of these divergences, Ahmadis have been subjected to discrimination and persecution in some Islamic countries. In the mid- 1970s, the Saudi Arabia-based World Muslim League called on Muslim governments worldwide to take action against Ahmadis. Ahmadis are since then banned in Saudi Arabia."

Throughout Pakistan's history, the Ahmadis have been subjected to harassment, which has, on occasion, led to serious bloodshed. Things got worse for them, when President Zia - ul Haq came to power in 1977 after a military coup. He introduced a policy of Islamization, and imposed severe restrictions on the Ahmadis. In 1984, further legislation was introduced aimed explicitly at these so - called heretics. Henceforth, the Ahmadis could no longer call themselves Muslims. Since then, scores of Ahmadis have been charged and sentenced severely under sections of the Pakistan Penal Code. Thus Ahmadis can be imprisoned and even sentenced to death solely for the exercise of their right to freedom of religion including the right to express their religion. Again, it is important to realise that such attitudes to " heretics " is a logical consequence of the orthodox Muslim position that Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets, that Islam is the most perfect and final expression of God's purpose for all mankind, and that salvation outside Islam is not possible.

Blasphemy towards God and the Prophet are punishable by death under Islam. In modern times, blasphemy has simply become a tool for Muslim governments to silence opposition; or for individuals to settle personal scores; or, as we saw earlier, to seek out and punish " heresy ". A report in the Economist points out the manipulation of "blasphemy " in Pakistan: " A judgment by the High Court in Lahore is worrying Pakistan's Christians. The court decided recently that Pakistan's blasphemy laws are applicable to all the prophets of Islam. Jesus is a prophet in Islamic teaching. By worshipping Jesus as the son of God, Christians are, it could be argued, committing a blasphemy....There are about 1.2 [million] Christians in Pakistan, out of a population of 120 [million]. Many of them are of low caste, doing menial jobs. Some have suffered for their beliefs. Tahir Iqbal, a mechanic in the air force who converted to Christianity and was charged with blasphemy, mysteriously died in prison while awaiting trial. Manzoor Masih was accused of blasphemy, given bail and shot dead in the street.... Human -rights watchers say there is often sectarian and political rivalry, a dispute over property or competition for jobs " [May 7, 1994]

Peace be with you

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