To AMK

Submitted by Lisa (Canada), Dec 2, 2005 at 00:41

==Lisa, only 10 Commandments to govern Humanity. Sounds a little limiting doesn't it?==

Is this a sarcastic statement? If not tell me specifically what didn't you like about what I wrote. Please read the bibles to understand what should truly govern humanity, but maybe you will not do that since you are told that the bibles are corrupted. The Ten commandments in addition to Jesus teachings and his life that was as a divine example for humanity, Jesus who never sinned, in his miraculous birth, marvelous life, his death and his resurrection set an example for humanity to follow. Love, equality of humans regardless of their differences and justice is what should govern humanity; Saint Paul said "if I speak like the wisest man on earth but don't have love in my heart then my life and my words are worthless". Quran governs Muslims only with backward laws and practices that are not compatible with human rights.

==Lisa, according to the Holy Quran, a woman is the man's equal, not inferior. Isn't that enough?==

This is enough if it is true, but it is not true in Islam, I would assume that you have read my previous contributions since you had commented on the 10 commandments, please check all of my contributions and provide specific answers. If you consider polygymy, beating women (slightly), divorcing women by saying one word (talqah), considering disobeying women to their husband Noshooz, having women brought to "biat elta'a" by force, denying muslim women the right to marry non muslim, having sex with captive and slave women, .. etc , if you consider all of this equality then we are really having issue with the explanation of the word equality or the word inferior.

==Lisa, clarity in the Holy Quran is a given if the readers are logical and open hearted, many a times clarity is achieved by supplementary Hadeeth. And many a times even clear signs are not enough to convince people who have their hearts sealed, who are blind and deaf.==

Please tell me what signs are you referring to, how can I trust a messenger who killed, stole and raped, compare Muhammad with Jesus although there is no room for comparison. Since I know lots of wonderful muslims, actually most of my friends are muslims, sometimes I question my self, maybe I am wrong, maybe Muhammad is the real messenger, maybe Quran is Gods words, but then when I read the Quran carefully which I did several times, it just doesn't click. How can I believe in this violence, the concept of Islam's superiority doesn't match my human rights concept, doesn't match the equality of humans that I strongly believe in, most of Islam's teachings are against human rights, trust me I have tried but the more I read the Quran the more I move away from Islam, The more I study hadeath and sira the more I feel that this can not be a divine message from GOD. I have to admit though that Islam has wonderful teachings about taking care of the poor etc, but what is new, all of the peaceful teachings in Islam are taken from Christianity. In other words Islam didn't bring anything new, on the contrary it diverted people from the real path to God almighty. When Christians says GOD is love, muslims says that GOD has 99 names in islam, but what is the use as long as these names are not presented in Quran. LOVE in islam is conditional, this concept doesn't match what I believe and doesn't match what billions of other people believes.


==Lisa, you are an authority on the workings of Islamic courts, or is this just a presumption?==

When I mentioned Sharawai and Qaradawi, it means that those people have judged (Ifta') in special cases with regards to women denying her husbands rights that were granted by Allah, simply a man can remarry another woman without having previous permission from a woman even if a marriage contract says otherwise, ask your muftees or shiaks if you don't believe me. However, my main reference is your Prophet who has several marriages without having to consult with his many wives, nor it is written in the Quran that a man has to consult with his wife and have her permission before remarrying!!!!!
Please answer me honestly, do you accept any condition that will deny you your right that is granted in Quran for you by your wife in your marriage contract?

==If all the thieves had their hands cut; would thievery increase or decrease?==

What do you mean?, so are you with cutting thieves hands? Is this a solution for theft?, I guess this is what is written in the Quran and Allah knows best. Is this one of the mercy and compassion examples of Islam?. I am with punishments of crimes, but these punishments should focus on correcting the bad behaviour of a thief, a person who committed a crime should face the consequences, however, this person if corrected properly then he may turn out to be a real value to the community. The most effective way in dealing with theft is to take the measures to prevent it, by education, financial support to the needy, etc, don't you think that cutting a thief hand is barbaric?

==So Lisa; a wife has to bear an abusive husband, a man has to bear a wife who cannot care less for the husband; there is constant tension in the house, let the children be affected by all the tension but NO TO DIVORCE! In Islam divorce is the least liked (by Allah) of the permissible things, IT IS THE LAST RESORT!==

There is separation in Christianity under circumstances like the one you have explained, the wife and the husband can live separately but no one is allowed to remarry until the other partner is dead. In severe cases like this, both partners have to go through professional counseling and or church counseling in order to solve their issues. Divorce is allowed if the marriage was not legal, example, if a woman or a man was forced to get married under physical or emotional threat, then the marriage is not considered legal because it lost its main condition which is the acceptance of both parties; in this case, the man or the woman can move away with a permission from the church and is allowed to remarry while the other partner is still alive.

==About Polygyny; The Holy Quran is the only book that says marry only one; no other religious book says that. But The Holy Quran puts and upper limit of 4. Can you please show me any verse from your books that say marry only one?==

I heard this so many times from muslims, where do you bring this information, this is absolutely not true, Marriage in Christianity is between ONE man and ONE woman, there is no polygamy in Christianity, please read the verses in my previous comments, I am not going to repeat myself.
You say that polygamy in Islam is limited how about your prophet, why did he marry about 13+ women, isn't he supposed to set an example?

==There are approximately 5 million more women than men in the USA, discount a few million homosexuals who would not marry a woman. Now assume every woman found a man, what happens to the extra 5 or more million? Who would satisfy her sexual needs? Oh women are not allowed to have sexual needs, Sex is evil right? Assume the women have no sources of income, should they all rely on you to help them financially? If a woman doesn't do housework, hates her husband for whatever reason; and say in retaliation the husband doesn't provide her with anything (remember, he can't divorce her). She is liberated to earn herself right? What if she has no skills, no talent and is basically useless, how does she earn her money? ==

I don't know where this number comes from, I can't speak for American women but I have a hunch that they are able to support themselves, so I don't think you need to feel sorry for them. Now, I would assume that your solution to this problem is polygamy. Really Mr. Ahmad or AMK, do you know the huge problems caused by polygamy, whether on men, on women and most of all on children, Why can't think of an effective solution? Like training women to take care of themselves? Or create supportive family care system, there are plenty in USA, there are so many solutions for such problems assuming that they exist. With regards to women sexual needs, maybe you know about women as much as your prophet did, women in general don't look to have sex for the sake of sex, they look for love, respect, harmony, they look for having a healthy family with a husband who is faithful and respectful and shares his responsibilities as a father, a husband and as a friend most of all, then making love (not sex) comes after that. Islam is driven by this desire for sex, in its regulation, in the life of your prophet, in its dress code, laws and even in heaven, muslim will be rewarded by sex in heaven!. Who said sex is evil if it is done out of love between a husband and a wife. It will be evil if we manipulate the laws in order to satisfy the desire of punch of men who can not control their sex desires when they see a female. Having said that, if a man or a woman can not have sex with their partners for any reason then too bad, they have to live with and not to abandon their partners for this reason.

==Oh, you don't even believe in Zakat so no one is bound to help her! Should she sell her body?==

Zakat is equivalent to charity in Christianity, I have never said that I don't believe in giving or providing help to the needy, in Christianity charity has to be provided to any one who is in need regardless of his/her religion. However, Zakat (muslim charity) is given to muslims only. Christianity doesn't differentiate between a hungry muslim, needy Budhest or poor christian, etc
Again AMK, why do you assume that women are illiterate, their only way to move away from poverty is selling their bodies? I have seen lots of examples in muslim and non muslim countries about women who not only support themselves but also their families and their un-employed husbands. A woman doesn't need a protector and marriage is not justified as a mean to have a financial support from a man. A marriage is an eternal relationship where both wife and husband share the challenges of life and build good generation to add value to the community and to the world.

==In Islam it is the husband's duty to provide for the wife and to treat her with fairness and to treat her well.==

In Christianity husband and wife vow to live together for bad and for good, for health and for sickness until death set them apart. They both obligated to treat other with love and respect. If a man for any reason can't support the family then it is the woman responsibility to step in and help with this sacred mission. What if a man had an accident and can't support his family or can satisfy his wife's sexual desire? Does that give the wife a reason to abandon him? What if the wife got sick and can't perform any of her duties as a wife and as a mother, does this mean that the husband should be free to remarry?. I heard this from so many muslim men on TV and in person, "well I had to remarry because my wife is sick."
The difference is that marriage in Christianity is based on love, love is not selfish, love is patient and love is giving without account.

==How can you contradict your self in one single sentence? Make up your mind, Muslim women are allowed in the Mosques or not? I (a Muslim) say they are but are not obliged too; they do not have to sit back behind men, but they have to be segregated from men and men have to be segregated from women.==

I know that, I was replying to Scholar with regards to his statement about Christian women and teaching in churches, so my question was equivalent to his, please read my previous posts.

I understand that men should be separated from women in order to keep men focus on praying so they won't be distracted by women' presence. It is interesting when I asked western men and some liberal muslim men about this subject, they said they feel insulted to think of men this way, Islam assumes that men can not control their sex desire, so women should be covered in order to keep men from fantasizing about sex and from committing adultery, but maybe because the founder of Islam has this issue and he then assumed that all men are similar to him. Muhammad even considered a hand shake between a man and a woman distracting, if a man had a "wado' i.e. clean and ready for pray then his wado' will considered bad if he had a hand shake with a woman. Interesting!!

==Since you do not believe in the veil or any clothing restrictions and are campaigning for women to lead prayers, lets imagine this; A woman in a mini skirt and a sheer top leading a huge gathering of men situated extremely close to her. Would you agree to do this?==

We Christians believe in decency, I have never said that I don't believe in clothing restrictions, please go to my previous posts when I compared the concept of vial in Islam and proper dress code in Christianity. As Jesus said, "our bodies are like temples of GOD" we have to respect our bodies and not to treat them to intimidate sexual drives for both sexes, what I have also said that doesn't mean a woman can not swim and wear a swimming suit for the sake of having exercise, Christianity is against adultery and against treating men, women and or children as sex objects and definitely against disrespectful signs of our bodies including clothing. Again, please look at my previous posts.
Why do I have to imagine what you just said, a woman in mini skirt leading men in prayers? No I don't believe in that, my question was simple why aren't women allowed to lead men in prayers?. And no I don't see veil getting women nor men closer to GOD. It is our thoughts and actions who get us close to God.

==Lisa, Taha Hussein challenged the Holy Quran, where is it; I can't find any reference to it! The challenge still stands; Produce a single Surah, somewhat SIMILAR to the Quran, and take the help of all mankind and all the jinns! Some lame copies I have seen even feel the need to copy the start of every Surah; Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim.==

Where do muslim get this concept, what is so beautiful about "kill", "hate", etc written in Quran, again it is the content of the book that attract me to read it not the way the book is written. Trust me, I can produce so many suras even with my level of Arabic education, what is so amazing about a book that is full of hate and contradictions?????
If you read my previous posts, I said that a known writer in Egypt challenged the Quran and was jailed because of this, I also said that I wasn't sure if it is Taha Hussien or someone else, but I promise I will find his name and will let you know. On a different subject, have you ever heard of Salman Rushdi?

==Lisa, since Arabic is your mother tongue you are truly an unfortunate soul; one who was blessed with the Arabic language but whiled her time away on inconsequential things like song and music. Though it's never too late.==

I am very fortunate that I can reply to whoever says that I should read the Quran in Arabic in order to understand it, trust me I understand it enough to keep me away from this religion. Whether in Arabic or in English translation the suras say the same for me. I appreciate your concern about my soul, but if heaven is how it is described in Quran then I prefer to stays away from it.

==The Quran is not about song and music; Poetry yes, one may call it the highest form of Poetry but the intention of the revelation is not to teach the followers Poetry, for that we have people like Taha Hussein.==

Too bad that Quran can not compete with Ahmad Shawki poems or Jahilya poems, can not compete with many songs of Um Kulthoum that are all about love and beauty, with songs of the Iraqi singer Kathem Elsaher and the beautiful Lebaneeze singer Fiarooz. Again I love Arabic language, I appreciate beauty of Arabic poems but can not appreciate Quran.

==Lisa, John, what about the scientific problems in the Bible? Surprising that God would make mistakes in his book! To learn more about this and about Science in the Holy Quran I urge you to get some video material from www.irf.net Especially the debate between Dr. Zakir Naik and Dr. William Campbell. By the way, this will also explain the other posters comment about sperm being made in the back of the rib! In case you jump to conclusions again, I am in no way affiliated with the IRF, do not know them personally but they are my Muslim brothers as all Muslims are.==

Unlike Quran, we don't claim that the bible is a scientific book, the bible is a spiritual book that show the way to GOD, I have looked at some of the scientific claims in Quran and I can easily debate that, how about you visit fiathfreedom.com to see debates about this subject. This is a long subject and I prefer to discuss it at a later stage if you insist

==May Allah forgive all our sins and may Allah show you the true path; Peace be with you! ==

This is the only comment that I totally agree with, may GOD almighty forgive all our sins and may GOD show you the true path

Peace be with you

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