To John, Lisa, Kevin, Telis, others.....

Submitted by AMK (India), Dec 2, 2005 at 21:00

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim

Dear readers, please try and understand this verse of the Holy Quran. Believe in it or not, but please read and try to understand. It's held true for the past 1400 odd years and it will hold true for eternity!

"When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes; for falsehood by its very nature is bound to perish."

Now to the arguments in most pleasant ways as Allah prescribes....
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Kevin

Yes I believe in what I have written here. I also believe parts of the other religious scriptures that concur with the Holy Quran and the teachings of Islam. What I don't believe in is the Baloney offered by you and the other anti-Islamic participants here. I know your response is going to be the standard anti Islamic response, if you're trying to incite me don't bother :-)

Fads don't last and grow over 1400 years in the process adding countless followers. Fads are usually short lived.

I feel happy to learn you know a lot of converts, Alhamdulillah. If they have truly believed in the message then Inshallah they will live as Muslims and die as Muslims, they'll prove your Fad theory wrong. Now please don't come and tell me tomorrow that all have them have rejected Islam after you advised them ;-)

Seeing that you certainly are not a Muslim and by your logic of being born into a religion to understand it; do I assume you are an Atheist? If not would you care to enlighten me about your religious persuasion and explain the nonsensical parts of the scriptures you follow?

I know it is hard for you to swallow that Islam offers mercy and forgiveness for the so called convicts if they truly repent. Islam offers the forsaken hope, that is hard to understand right? Islam shatters the racism and prejudices prevalent in today's society, that is hard to swallow right? "The most superior amongst you is the one who has maximum Taqwa (God consciousness)". Not the richest, the fairest, not the strongest, not the most intelligent. Have these so called convict converts converted before their crimes or after?

Once again I repeat; "There is no compulsion in religion". Only stubborn people would fail to realise that force can never garner the support, love and spread of an ideology as major as Islam.

Dear ole Kevin, it was so silly of you to paste a link to the message board. Are you trying to preach to me that prostitution, extra marital affairs, taking in mistresses is something encouraged & accepted in Catholic society? You could have simply given a link to the data.

If your hypothesis is true (about the multiplying Muslims in the USA), I feel proud! Inshallah, in the next couple of generations Muslims would be the majority religion there. Isn't it easier to produce 10 Muslim children, feed them, take care of them, educate them (I know you think we're uneducated) than to convert one blonde hair blue eyed Kafir? Of course convicts (should that be read as African Americans and/or Hispanics in your language?) are useless; anyone with dark hair, dark skin, dark eyes is useless; you don't need such members in your faith, right? You would love for these people to convert to Islam, right? I welcome them to the Muslim Ummah if they believe in the message.

Well, the Christian missionaries (catholic faith?) think it's fine to pay (bribe) the tribals and uneducated in India to convert to Christianity! Is that fine with you? A lot of my Hindu nationalist brothers are mighty pissed off with this, they take every opportunity to incite hate crimes against these missionaries. There was a shocking case of an Australian missionary and his 2 (under) 12 year old boys being burnt alive! I say let them pay the oppressed to convert, if they believe bribes will etch faith in the hearts of these tribals let them do it. Don't fret, Muslims are in their hate list too.

Kevin, you have touched the nerve of Rakshas 10 Anan with your Fad comment! Are you willing to retract it for Hinduism and Buddhism so that you may get a former follower back on saddle? Well none of my business, it's between you and him.

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Telis,

I am not defending Islam, Alhamdulillah Islam doesn't need defenders. I am trying to educate you and your Anti-Islamic co-posters ...

Name another cult who even comes close to Islam based on the sheer number of followers. Cults live and die with their initiators, at best they may survive a few generations. If your definition of cult and religion is one and the same then I'm sure our Jewish and Christian brothers would feel quite offended.

Be very afraid if the all the Muslims united one day. For the sake of what many call freedom (to lie, cheat, fornicate, only care about oneself, drunken merry, violence, to hold prejudices) be very afraid.

Your example of Sudan is quite lame, are the Muslims killing Muslims for religion there? Islam condemns man for killing any innocent person! Human history is all about greed, greed for power, money, lust! Islam keeps that in check. If the so called Muslims (and Kafirs) fail to follow the teachings of Islam they are the losers and the dwellers of the Fire. I don't believe Muslims are killing Muslims in Sudan in the name of religion, but let me give you an example of this in another faith; do you remember Ireland, do you know the protestants, Catholics, unionists, etc? Rings a bell? No? Well a new browser window to launch the Google is only a mouse click away!

I can't comment on the policies of your Government, I am an Indian and live in India. We have had minority hating Governments but Alhamdulillah recently better sense has prevailed. May be you need an anti-Islamic peoples peaceful revolution in your own country to influence the policies of your Government, strive for anti-Islamic policies? However I doubt you would lean towards such a difficult path; it's easier to sit at home, why should your comfortable life be disrupted to enforce something you believe in.
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Lisa,

Mawdudi/Maodoodi is a controversial figure and his Tafsir is highly controversial. I know this fact plays right into your hands but please do read up about him. I had never heard his name till you mentioned him, I just did a little reading and got to know his controversial preachings. His opponents, the neutrals and even his own followers rejected him. Apparently he was uneducated (some say self taught) and had no mastery over Arabic. You would love to call his critics oppressors, right?

I am not passing judgements against him, I am not familiar with his work and preachings so I would not like to comment on them.

If you are referring to temporary Nikah then I can categorically say that Muslims of the Sunni school of thought (myself) out rightly reject it, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) has forbidden it. Obviously the Prophet (PBUH) is the recipient of the revelation, he will never forbid something that is made legal in the Quran. Remember, this is the view of a majority of Muslims, something you already know but quoting it would nullify your criticisms; right?

Like many prevalent & deeply entrenched practices of the age of ignorance, temporary Nikah was gradually phased out; just like alcohol was gradually phased out and not suddenly forbidden.

The Shia school of thought accepts temporary Nikah, I don't believe in it and neither do a majority of the Muslims. But the Shia have their reasoning too. It is not meant to be used as prostitution or to legalise extra marital sex, in these cases it is reviled by Shia Muslims. One use is to get to know a mate, one use is to make someone a Mahram, and there are several other uses that can be seen as useful by some.

Assuming I am a follower of the Shia school of thought, my explanation would be; How different is this from the practice of dating in modern society? At least a woman gets her rights in this temp Nikah, there are strict rules and regulations to be followed! Unlike the modern day practice of use, abuse & discard.

Once again; Sunni Muslims (who are a majority) consider it Haraam. But based on reasoning and the explanation you cannot even attack my Shia brothers with the sole intention of undermining Islam, Alhamdulillah!
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Hello John,

Though English is my first language I am not good at playing with words; you my Brother seem to be adept at this! Do you honestly say that you did not accuse Islam of being Satan's religion, or at least his inspiration? You do not need to be politically correct here, you have never been in your postings here so why now? Don't worry, I don't get incited by your words; I remember God's words, "And argue with them in the most pleasant ways".

Well, whether you stick to your argument or not; who has come up with this crazy idea of the 10 test criteria, is it your own invention; if so how does this have any legitimacy? Has the Church come up with this, or is it endorsed by the Church or some religious authority you follow?

Our Prophet (PBUH) was terrified when the first revelation came to him from Archangel Jibril. Remember, the Prophet (PBUH) was human, unlike Christians believing Isa (PBUH) to be the human son of God and God himself and a form of God (huh?). I don't know whether the Prophet (PBUH) felt suicidal or not, though how does that prove Satan came unto him? Are we still trying to prove things or is it just the testing phase still? Anyway, how do you expect an unlettered human to feel when he sees/feels something unearthly, something one can never imagine, something putting divine words into his mouth? Possessed one may say?

All of us is a very broad term, there are Hindus and probably atheists on this board too. Yes Christians, Jews and Muslims believe what you say about Satan rebelling. In addition, I don't know about Jews and Christians but the Muslim belief is that Satan was a jinn, not an Angel.

Well I would say Satan would desire to lead humans astray, but your definition of degrade could include astray too?

Popular western culture always attributes orgies and human sacrifices to Paganism, I think! But as a matter of fact Islam forbids this.

In Islam sex, power and food are not promised in this world, and power is not promised in Paradise too (why would one need power in Paradise? You are with your Lord). Sex, power and food are allowed in this world. All of them only legally as defined by the Lord of the worlds. Although in the hereafter the Fire, powerlessness, punishment & desperation is promised as a payment for misdeeds (crimes/sins) of this world. But since you seem to know Satan on personal terms may be he promised you sex, power and food in this world?

What reward did God promise you in the hereafter for the pleasures you enjoy in this world; Peace, is that it? Well, God promised me that too, for enjoying in this world only the permissible pleasures & necessities he has decreed.

What are the correct spiritual promises of the hereafter according to you or your faith? The Lord of the worlds promised me mansions, legal sexual pleasures, legal drinks (without getting intoxicated) in Paradise. He promised me niceties and pleasures in Paradise that no Human in this world can imagine. But these are conditional promises, rewards for good deeds.

How does staying in mansions, enjoying legal sexual pleasures, enjoying legal drinks (without getting intoxicated) bringing down the dignity of being human? By this definition the aspirations of every single man/woman in this world would be immoral and undignified. But of course you are an expert on Human psychology, you know what desires all Humans have in this world!

So you do not agree with any faith's religious teachings that God created clean and unclean beings, good and evil, right and wrong? And you do not agree that God gave you (a human) free will and teachings to judge one from the other and abstain from the negatives? Then you would consider Satan clean too, God's being right? Would you give him a big tight loving hug when you meet him the next time? Please note that I have modified your use of 'creation' to 'being' as I assumed any sane person would mean that. If you really do mean creation then everything is His creation; including human waste and the things in this world YOU consider unclean. You wouldn't seriously advocate touching of human waste just because it is God's creation?

In spite of you talking about spiritual dimensions sometimes you come out as an atheist!

You tell me Satan would want to hide the beauty of God's creation and ask me if that's correct or not. I don't know, but you must know since you seem to know the mysterious teachings of Satan.

I think you are confusing beauty with modesty; and if there is no concept of modesty in your faith what stops you from roaming the streets in the nude, Human Nature? What if one chooses not to follow Human Nature and roam around nude, just for the sake of embarrassing your/my sister/mother. Since faith does not define modesty you cannot ask the nudist to stop based on faith laws. Government laws? If the Government can decide how much clothing is acceptable doesn't our Creator know better?

The Lord of the worlds tells me that lack of modesty makes your friend's job of leading humans astray so much more easier!

Destruction of mankind would bring Satan's free reign to an abrupt end, why would he want to end his free reign? He knows after this he has to give a lot of people company in the fire, the dwellers of the Fire need a leader there too!

Your statements relating to sex; I mean what are you trying to say, it's not making sense! About it featuring prominently in Satan's religion; I don't know, but since you know Satan so well you must be knowing? If you are trying to imply that sex features prominently in Islam then I disagree, out of thousands of sentences from the Holy Quran you pick a handful for presentation here and that is your evidence; is that all you have? These accusations have been thrown around from the time of the Holy Quran being revealed, Alhamdulillah the wise have always understood the follies of your teachers, including your master teacher, your friend who figures so prominently in your preachings :-)

Satan does not penetrate in to religions, he's always warned about by all religions. Satan tries to corrupt the minds of followers but the Lord of the worlds has given his Human creation the qualities of reasoning, thought, judgement, logic. He has made the followers superior to Satan if they so desire; unfortunately many still fall prey to Satan. I have either answered your other veiled accusations against Islam and the Prophet (PBUH) in my previous posts or in this very post addressed to others.

Of course I agree with you that Satan's ultimate destination is Hell, any sane person would agree with that. Are you questioning yourself? Whether his essence is hate or not I don't know; I don't know him on personal terms, luckily the Lord of the worlds has warned me about him and keeps him away from me!

No, my Holy Book is not filled with hate verses. Although all the (original) books of my Lord, the Lord of all the worlds do promise torments of the Fire for non-believers, transgressors, mischief mongers, evil doers.

You again claim that you did not imply Islam is the religion of Satan! It is clear for me and all the readers here to see what you said and implied. Are you afraid that you may be wrong in your beliefs hence do not want to take any chances in case your name is added to the list of dwellers of the Fire?

One verse from the Holy Quran is enough to prove your claim of non-completion of orders wrong. It goes something like; "Today, I have perfected your religion for you". And several accounts of the Prophet's (PBUH) final sermon/s show that he proclaimed the completion of his duties and responsibilities. Of course if you do not believe in this Verse of the Holy Quran then there is nothing to argue from me!

He (PBUH) wanted to declare the first Caliph and probably lay down the rules for choosing successions of Caliphs forever, you are trying to show yourself as a mind reader or a psychologist. Anyway, by Allah's will that did not happen! And isn't it divine that our Prophet (PBUH) could not make the will? If the will was made all the Muslims would probably be even more united than what they are today, they would be one, there would be no different sects and schools of thought in Islam. That would prove the prophecy of our great Prophet (PBUH) wrong when he said "My Ummah will be divided in 70 different Sects and only one of those Sects will be on the right path". It is our duty to find the right path and judge right from wrong, we have been given the tool, the Holy Quran for this job! Please note that He (PBUH) did not say to his Ummah to divide, he only prophesised.

I don't know what you've tried to prove with this 10 test criteria; I assume you tried to prove Islam is Satan's religion; to this I say you have failed miserably. If you yourself do not say that Islam is Satan's religion then you are silly to assume I would say so?

John, please accept my heart felt apologies if you feel I was arrogant; arrogance is looked down upon in Islam and I never intended to be arrogant. May Allah forgive me for my arrogance, my other sins and all my wrongs! May Allah bless you with the ability to see the true path and may Allah forgive your sins.

John, just like Kevin you have touched the nerve of Rakshas 10 Anan with your comments too! Are you too willing to retract your comments for Hinduism and Buddhism so that you may get a former follower back on saddle? As I said to Kevin, none of my business, it's between you and him.
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Although I am no preacher, consider this next Para a sermon!

The Prophet (PBUH) begged his most beloved Uncle Abu Talib to accept Islam till the last moment he (Uncle) died. Alas, his uncle, his sole protector in Makkah who brought him up like a son and ensured no Pagans harmed him, and loved him more than anyone else in this world did not accept Islam. This man was a father, mother, guardian, friend, protector, helper of the Prophet (PBUH). Imagine, for this man there is no forgiveness as he did not accept the Oneness of Allah and the Message of Islam. On the day of judgement our Prophet (PBUH) will intercede for him, to beg Allah to move him from the centre of the Fire of the edge of it; it will be granted by Allah's wish but that does not mean removal from the Fire; there will be no forgiveness for the rejecters of Faith!

Brothers/Sisters, I'll tell you a little something about myself. I went to a Jesuit convent school, grew up amongst Catholics, happily attended the compulsory weekly mass (we had to), spent almost every evening in my final 3 years of school at a sports club inside a church complex, participating in various sports with the Priests themselves. Some of my closest friends in school and college were Catholics and Hindus (actually only one Muslim). I also studied the Holy Quran in my childhood and teenage years from many teachers but not one teacher of mine ever explain the verses you people (of this board) quote here in the same context and meaning as you make them out to be!

Then a few years ago I started reading more about Islam and listening to scholars of all faiths debate with one particular Muslim, he's considered a scholar on comparative religions. I was amazed to learn about the universal truth of Islam, about how no sane and logical mind could ever deny it. And as Allah is my witness, the more you people attack Islam, the stronger my faith becomes. Alhamdulillah! There is not a single Tenet of Islam that is against Humanity as a whole. If you want to have a true informed debate with this Scholar please do visit www.irf.net . He conducts public talks, debates, Q&A sessions all around the world. Residents of India can meet him personally.

Rakshas, Mr. Burton, A.A., Ahmed, Lisa, John, Atim; I just saw your follow up posts hence I have not had the time to reply. Inshallah, time permitting I will reply to your posts too. Forgive me if my reply is delayed or does not arrive; it's quite difficult for one man to argue with 10 different people, even though they keep repeating the same points over and over again :-) This is not my profession, nor am I trained at it. I am an ordinary Muslim, running Alhamdulillah my successful business; I have never preached before posting to this forum but I believe it is my religious obligation to spread the truth, hence I try. I know this is the wrong board to preach Islam, so many preconceived prejudices... If Allah wills my efforts will bear fruit and at least one doubter will see the true path!

By the way, out of curiosity, I understand the meaning of Rakshas but what does 10 Anan mean.

As for my opinions and belief about the violence carried out in the name of Islam, which is the crux of the matter in recent debates about the so called anti-Human nature of Islam.

"Whoever (Muslim or Kafir) kills an innocent man (Muslim or Kafir), it is as though he has killed the entire human kind". Put whatever meaning to "innocent" you may wish but please don't play with words and cause mischief.

Alhamdulillah, may peace be with you all, may Allah forgive all our sins and guide the astray to the true path!

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