Ovais: On putting the cart before the horse and sundry other Islamist tricks

Submitted by Plato (India), Aug 11, 2009 at 08:29

Ovais, you wrote,

>>greetings to christians jews and muslims all over the world.islam says that these people are the people from the book. ...<<

No greetings for polytheists, atheists, gays? Allah has a neat little caste system with Muslims on top followed by the Christians and then the Jews and Sabians. Polytheists, atheists or gays are the pariahs, untouchable, casteless people, who Allah burns in hell like the upper castes sometimes, do the pariahs in India.

>>how can war lead to peace.<<

Apparently the Koran does think war leads to peace for it tells Muslims that they must like war:

002.216 YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

>>how can hatred win love.<<

The Koran does not want Muslims to win the love of non-Muslims even if they be their own close kin:

003.118 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

009.023 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

>>history tells us that islam spread beautifully ,its ideology first and then its force.<<

You got the cart before the horse. It was always Islamic force then its ideology. Recall the prophet's practically useless preaching of his ideology in Mecca for thirteen years and having only a handful of believers to show for it? But the moment Muhammad entered Mecca with his ten thousand armed men he had practically the whole of the city eating out his hand convinced of the 'beauty' of his ideology. The Koran itself crows about this "achievement":

110.001-002 YUSUFALI: When comes the Help of Allah, and Victory, And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,

Islam entered Persia by force and then its ideology spread, so too in Egypt, Syria, India and most other countries which are Muslim today. Who are you trying to fool?

>>ask a jew what was your golden age and he will reply ,when muslims ruled spain. such was the harmony <<

You must be joking. What about under King Solomon or King David? Spain was about the only bright spot under Islam for the Jews and that probably because they had the intellectual capital the Muslim kings required. But they were dhimmis nevertheless.

>>in prophets time jews had so much respect for him. that era can be given as a best example of coexistence.<

You had me rolling on the floor with this claim of Jews respecting Muhammad. The Koran gives the lie to your claim:

005.082 YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans….

005.051 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors….

You are contradicting Allah with your claim that the Jews respected the prophet. Koran 5:82 is very clear that the Jews were the enemies of Muhammad and tells all believers not to make friends with them in 5:51. Would Mohammed defy Allah and respect Jews after Allah had given him these instructions? After this charge against them which Jew would respect him?

If you know your sira, Muhammad ordered the killing of any Jew who fell into a Muslim's hand and almost immediately one of his thugs in waiting followed it up and murdered his Jewish employer. His own brother, still a pagan, cried foul over this foul murder. Read 'The Life of Muhammad', page 369, by Ibn Ishaq, translated by Alfred Guillaume, Oxford University Press, Pakistan

>>muslim sharia is only for practising muslims.in a muslim country a person with other faith can practise his religion and muslims will have nothing to do with it.<<

In how many Muslim countries can people set up their own religion and practice it? In Iran the Bahais are a persecuted lot. In Pakistan the Hindus have been hounded out so that they now number less than 5% from nearly 20% at partition. In Saudi Arabia you cannot even take a bible into the country. Not many Muslim majority countries will allow idol worshippers to set up temples to their gods in sharp contrast to all non-Muslim countries allowing mosques to proliferate. You are simply playing the game of Muslims claiming all sorts of non-existent virtues for Islam.

>>in holy quran it is written that say to non muslims who dont want to accept islam "to you belong your religion and to me mine".<<

You had me rolling on the floor again. You have picked out an ayat delivered in Mecca when the powerless Prophet was all tolerance and for peaceful preaching to the pagans, Jews and Christians. Cut to Medina where he usurped power from the locals and now becomes an intolerant monotheist preacher bringing down curses and threats against the non-Muslims unless they caved in and accepted his Allah as the sole god. Read:

003.085 YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

003.083 YUSUFALI: Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah?-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.

22.19 : These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,

009.033 YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

>>muslim cannot impose laws on others but can wait untill your heart opens up.<<

You are again contradicting Allah, for He tells you in 5:21 that He must prevail, which obviously would include obedience to His laws. He is not talking about waiting for the non-Muslims' hearts to open up.

058.021 YUSUFALI: Allah has decreed: "It is I and My messengers who must prevail": For Allah is One full of strength, able to enforce His Will.

And His claim to be able to enforce His will does not make sense as despite His claim to strength He has not succeeded in making His messengers prevail by converting all of humanity to Islam.

In 9:29 Allah also wants Muslims to fight the non-Muslims until they a humiliation tax ( Muslims now dishonestly claim that this tax is to exempt them for military duty):

009.029 YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

You will notice that this verse is an unequivocal instruction to Muslims to fight all non-Muslims until they believe or pay a tax as protection money and as a demonstration of their humiliation..

>>but simultaneously islam does not like imorality inhumanity unequality immodesity corruption.<<

Your claim that Islam does not not like immorality, inhumanity, inequality and immodesty and corruption, again shows you have no clue to the true nature of Islam. Let me take them one by one:

1. immorality. Your prophet married his own adopted son's wife Zainab after having Allah send him permission. Even the jahiliya Arabs thought this an act of immorality. Muhammad also married Ayesha when she was six and slept with her when she was nine (we have seen innumerable attempts at trying to wriggle out of this patently immoral act, including mathematical calisthenics to pump up her age to near nineteen).

2. inhumanity. The prophet marries Juwairiya the same day he had her husband tortured and killed and takes her to bed even before sunrise the next day. He had all male members of the Banu Quraiza tribe beheaded on the trumped up charge of having conspired against the Muslims during the battle of the trench. The women and children were sold into slavery. All the gory details are there in the sira and hadith.

3. inequality. With a few verses Allah downgrades half of humanity to be second grade humans. Men are given the right to thrash women in 4:34. Women given only half the right of males in inheritance in 4:11. Women's testimony worth only half a man's in 2:282 and men made a degree above women in 2:228

4. immodesty. What is immodesty? Does a woman showing anything more of her body than her two eyes, two hands and her toes count as immodesty. Did Khadija the first Muslim woman wear the hijab?

5. corruption: It is a corrupt practice to give inducements or hold out threats to make people behave. The Koran is strewn with verses doing just that. For belief you are enticed with wine, women, food and an indolent and languorous life in a place called paradise. YUSUF ALI 055.056 In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-
038.052 And beside them will be chaste women restraining their glances, (companions) of equal age.

055.070 In them will be fair (Companions), good, beautiful;-

055.072 -75 Companions restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions;-
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-
Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-

056.035 -38 We have created (their Companions) of special creation. And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), - Beloved (by nature), equal in age,- For the Companions of the Right Hand.
078.032 -34YUSUFALI: Gardens enclosed, and grapevines; And voluptuous women of equal age; And a cup full (to the brim).

056.019 -22: No after-ache will they receive there from, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,-

What have we learned from these verses about paradise? Allah stresses in many places that Muslims will be offered chaste women who coyly restrain their glances (why? Did the Arabs of the time consider this sexy?). The women would not have been touched or defiled by man or jinn (i.e virgins, always in demand by Arabs), and they would be voluptuous (big bosoms, again in demand in Arabia) and they would have big lustrous eyes. Writing this even I was salivating for Allah's paradise! Then which of the favours of their Lord will the Muslims deny?? (You will also have noticed that women are not offered similar pleasures with tall handsome,muscular men.)
All this hankering for fair and undefiled females is disdained in this life. Allah reserves it for paradise. Actually, Allah even offers bribes to poor believers to strengthen their faith in the form of money collected from rich Muslims. 009.060 YUSUFALI: Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); ….

As For those who are not convinced with all these earthly pleasures in paradise Allah lays out in detail the excruciating punishment for not being a believer. 004.056 YUSUFALI: Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Truly, Allah is exalted in power and Wise too!

>>muslims are important part of society just like others and those who demand tolerance are themselves not ready to coexist .they dont see the full picture.<<

You have not named the ones who demand tolerance and refuse to co-exist. Let us examine the extent of Muslim tolerance and co-existence. In the land of the prophet no other religion is not allowed to co-exist with Islam. In Iran Bahais and Sunnis are always under threat. In Pakistan Hindus have been hounded out of their ancestral homes and Ahmadias have been reduced to nonentities. Ahmadias like other Muslims are a flourishing community in India, a land of unbelievers. In Iraq and Lebanon the Christians are a fast depleting faith. In Afghanistan Muslims demand jiziya from the kafirs. In Sudan the Charistians and animists have been under attack and hundreds of thousands killed and made homeless.

Cut to the non-Muslim countries. In India the Muslim population is growing faster than that of the Hindus. Muslims occupy some of the most powerful and coveted positions in the country. In the West Muslims enjoy the unfettered practice of their religion, except when it infringes on the freedoms and culture of the land.

>>they want to keep half of the people happy and as a result the other half will struggle resulting in discomfort to all.this world is like a human body if it is pricked any where the whole body feels the pain. REST IS UP TO YOU TO DESIDE WHAT IS BEST FOR US.<<

You are doing better in the non-Muslim world than in your Islamic countries. Muslims make a beeline for countries like the US, UK, Australia and when well settled want to revert back to the ways of the old country which they had fled.

You don't know what is best for Muslims, Mr. Ovais.

Regards

Plato

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