Once again, I must correct you

Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Nov 19, 2006 at 22:20

Pir Sahab, your replies show a great deal of ignorance of both history and reality. Let me correct you on these issues once again. I'll cherry pick your arguments, otherwise my post would be thousands of words long.

You wrote: "America is the largest market and it has the largest arms manufacturing industries. when ever it sees that world is going towards peace. it starts wars or persuades other nations to engage in wars. ( like .. it sold arms to Pakistan.. India.. Iraq in Gulf and the Saudis] as a result US gets money money and more money . So what about that activity of front line supporter of Human rights."

First, you really do need to start keeping up with current news. Russia just surpassed America and it is now the #1 dealer of arms to developing nations worldwide ($7 Billion). Most of Russia's arms are going to China, Iran, and India. France is the #2 dealer (6.3 Billion) and America is #3 ($6.2 Billion). Second, America does not start wars with peaceful countries. It was American intervention that brought peace to the world by defeating the Axis powers in WWII.

Next, you seem fixated on the Taliban: "I think you are talking about Talibaan..... I have said in earlier comment that America is responsible for talibaan regime and now I will say to Americans...... TIT FOR TAT"

I am not talking about the Taliban. Is it the Taliban committing mass homicides of innocent women and children in Israel? No. That would be the Palestinians. Is it the Taliban hurling rockets into civilian centers in Israel? No, that's Hamas. Is it the Taliban threatening to wipe Israel off the map? No, that's Iran. Is it the Taliban blowing up Muslims in Iraq? No, that's Hezbollah. Yes, the Taliban are violent Muslims too, but the things I am talking about are clearly being done by Muslims across the Islamic world.

Next, you make this absurd claim: "but if someone defames our religious beliefs then we are ordered to reply. But most of the rioting, kidnapping , murders are parts of US plannings to portray Islam as a religious of hate, aggression and terror."

So tell me, if it's America staging these protests, if it's America inciting Muslims in Muslim countries to riddle churches with bullets and burn warehouses...then the corollary to that theory is that Muslims are stupid enough to be used as pawns that way. How exactly is America getting these Muslims to react so violently in public in response to something as ridiculous as a cartoon in a newspaper? Do we pay Muslims to riot? Do we sweet talk them into it?

Please explain this power that America supposedly has over Muslims in Muslim countries that enables us to flip a switch and send them to the streets en masse to commit acts of violence?

Next, you said: "So, if a muslim commits a sin, It doesn' t mean that Islam tells him to do so."

Well, considering that your holy book tells you that it's permissible to lie to non-Muslims and to break contracts with them, and to kill them if they don't submit to Islam, I'd say we have very different definitions of the word "sin".

You next show total ignorance of the Christian religion, which you're trying to denigrate by saying: "Now if a muslim commits sin or does against Islamic teachings he will be punished by Allah. You { Christians } believe that your sins will be forgiven . But we believe " unless and untill any one feels ashamed of his sins and then promises not to repeat them again, he will not be forgiven."

Perhaps you should pick up a Bible before criticizing the Christian faith. Christians believe that sinners are forgiven only if they accept Jesus and ask for forgiveness. Those who continue to sin and commit evil acts and who do not seek forgiveness do not get forgiveness in the end. Instead, they spend the rest of eternity burning in Hell as a punishment for their sins. So your comparison in an attempt to make Islam appear more lawful is nonsense.

You keep repeating the mantra: "Islam is the religion of peace." Unfortunately (for you), repeating an untruth a thousand times does not make it true. If Islam is the religion of peace, then explain to me why it is involved in wars against all other religions, why it is involved in well over 90% of all conflicts currently occuring in the world, why Islam is the only religion that reacts with extreme violence and death threats over any sort of criticism of (or even analysis of) its beliefs?

Buddhism, that's a religion of peace. Islam? Violent beyond words.

Next, you claim: "The characteristics of a True Muslim is that he never takes initiative in any agression or war."

Try telling that to the Christians living before the Crusades, or the Christians in Sudan. You do know why there has been constant war in Sudan, right? Because Muslims refused to live up to their promises of creating a united, federal Sudan after decolonization by the British. As is always the case, the Muslims wanted to force an Islamic state on the entire country. That led to war, and to genocide by the Muslims, who have caused more death than in any war since WWII. Islam, with its utter and unreasoning intolerance of other religions, is once again committing genocide against non-Muslims in Sudan.

Your claims are simply not backed by reality, Mr. Sahab. Not by any stretch of the imagination. You make yet another inexplicable claim: "We believe that All people of the globe are human and have equal rights."

Why then are women treated liker cattle in Muslim countries? Why are people of faiths other than Islam denied the freedom to worship as they see fit? You can't even bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia, and you can be jailed simply for having a Christian Mass. That's equal rights? Once again, your claim withers in the face of reality.

Next, you say: "But when ever any one has tried to attack on us and tried to threaten us or becomes dangerous for our sovereinty, we fight with him. ( This is our right to defend our selves) Islamic teachings tells to adopt defensive strategy always. You know "

Self defense is natures oldest law"." The problem is, Islam sees everything that does not bow to its will as a "threat". The mere existence of Christians in Sudan is considered a "threat". The existence of Jews in the Gaza strip (or, according to the PLO, Hamas, and other popular Islamic groups, their existence anywhere in the Middle East) is a "threat".

The problem is not other people or other religions. The problem is that Islam is a paranoid, frightened, immature, and violent religion that has proven incapable of peaceful co-existence with any other religion or belief system. Here are a few quick corrections.

You wrote: "But what about the Christians who fought wars against Jews ( Holocaust and other holy wars)."

The Christians did not instigate and conduct the Holocaust. That was the Nazis with the help of Muslims. Christians saved the Jews by defeating the forces of evil. "Who fought wars against communists( against Russians)." America, proudly. And remember, Communism has resulted in hundreds of millions of deaths in the 20th century. It was an evil, corrupt, homicidal ideology. It was a just war, fighting such an ideology of death.

Islam has stepped up to take the place of Communism as the great world evil in this century. "who fought wars against Islam( history is full of those till now...not need to mention)"

You obviously prefer to remain ignorant as to why Christians were forced to fight against Islam. Try reading a history book, preferably one written by a non-Muslim. On your claims of Islamic pursuit of knowledge, you wrote: "Islam tells us to get knowledge from any where. we come there for the sake of knowledge"

Once again, I bring reality to the table to dispute your erroneous claims. The two best selling books in Muslim countries are not scholarly works, but rather Mein Kampf by Hitler and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It's a historical fact that Arabic Unnani medicine was a bastardized version of Indian Ayurvedic Medicine, stolen when Islam trampled over the Vedic culture of the time. If Islam pursues knowledge, then why is half its society (women) denied education? Why then is the literacy rate in Islamic countries so far below the average? As is always the case in these debates, your claims are contradicted by reality.

Next up, this bizarre claim: "we come there to get knowledge ( i accept) and to defend ourselves and to tell the American people that we are not terrorists,, we are not barbarians,,, we are not evil,,, we are not threat to the innocent people but threat to the falsehood."

If you want to prove to the American people that Islam is not violent, that Muslims are not terrorists, then the way to do it is NOT to come fly airplanes into skyscrapers and kill thousands of innocent people, or to try imposing (through Islamic groups like CAIR) your views on Americans, or to riot and engage in violence every time people criticize Islam. You do realize that when people publicly question, criticize, or examine Islam in the light of reality, Muslims tend to kill those who speak the truth?

Next, you turn to the typical anti-Semitic propaganda: "if you look at things that are considered as barbaric and if you attempt to put the evil or barbarian to an end, then first of all put the Israeli govt to an end which is showing tyranny against the innocent palestinians in their own land,"

The verifiable fact of reality is that Muslims in Israel have more freedom, more rights, and better living conditions than Muslims living in any other country, Islamic or otherwise. I find it odd how Muslims always attack Israel as being "barbaric" and yet then never seem to criticize their own people for exploding suicide/homicide bombs in busy cafes and pizzerias filled with innocent women and children. Why is that, Pir?

Why is it that every time this comes up, Muslims point out Israel's actions as barbaric, while trying to justify Islam's actions as justified? You don't consider sending one's adolescent child into a crowd of innocent people in order to blow himself up with a suicide vest as barbaric? Yes or no? You say: "which shows aggresson and has dropped cluster missiles on the innocent lebanese men, women and children. instead of punishing Israel on its barbaric activities you are supporting it . Why??"

Again, as I have said before, Israel takes great pains to MINIMIZE collateral damage, to minimize accidental deaths of civilians when it hunts down and kills Islamic terrorists. Usually they will allow a terrorist target to escape (which often results in more Jewish deaths) in order to avoid killing civilians. Muslims, on the other hand, TARGET civilians.

Do you see the difference there? Israelis wring their hands and hang their heads in shame when innocent bystanders are killed, whereas Muslims parade in the streets in celebration when one of their terrorists kills a crowd of innocent people. The question is not why or whether I endorse Israel's actions. The question is why Islam celebrates the terror committed by Muslims.

Back to the subject of religion, you wrote: "My dear listen carefully........... if man is free to do any thing.. then why it was necessary to send messengers of God ( If you are christian and believe in bible Jesus Christ and God then I am very dishearted by that comment ). if man is free and has no limitations and no one can direct his acitivities then why Jesus Christ came with Bible to adress the people. listen .. when ever man will become free to do any thing and if there will be no doctrine to adress and direct his activities then there will be evils in the world ."

Because God gave man free will. It's man's choice whether or not to commit evil. If he commits evil, then he is sent to hell for all eternity. If he chooses the path of goodness, he is rewarded with eternity in Heaven. The prophets were sent here to give mankind guidance so that mankind could make a decision as to which path to follow.

Your next absurd claim: "every one will try to blow his own trumpet. at last my dear if every one has free will then why America is killing so many innocents ,, why you are bombing in homes where parents are there along with their infant children..'

We all know very well that Muslim terrorists place civilians in combat zones, hide in Mosques and hospitals, and commit other acts forbidden by the Geneva Convention in order to create the illusion that you claim. America does not target hospitals, churches, mosques, or other civilian places. The problem is that Muslim terrorists will purposely and knowingly place innocent civilians in harm's way in order to both prevent retaliation by the opponent, and also to use as propaganda when their cowardly tactics fail.

Anyone who hides in civilian populations behind innocent women and children is a coward, and that's precisely what we see from Islamic terrorists around the world.

On alcohol consumption, you wrote: "you accepted that even hardly but it is being cruel to oneself. Yet Islam say not cruel to your self hardly or softly..."

We hit a speed bump in the language barrier here I'm afraid. That phrase I wrote does not mean that moderate alcohol consumption is somewhat harmful. What it means (it's an English idiom) is that moderate alcohol is not something you can call harmful. There is a massive amount of research proving that moderate drinking of wine produces many health benefits including the lowering of blood pressure and it also shows some anti-cancer properties. Indian Ayurvedic Medicine has a great deal of information on medicinal wine and its proven health benefits. Of course, ANYTHING can be abused, including alcohol.

You further state: "Now Islam knows that thing ,,that if alcohol will not be prohibited then people will start using it in access, as according to human nature is " if something has no ban to use,, we take it in excess, thats why Islam bans to use it. secondly for your kind information, islam prohibits excess of drink and food by the following verses."

That is an absurd argument. First of all, it makes no sense to deny the majority of people a thing that brings health benefits simply because some people will abuse it. And going by your argument, we might as well ban Islam, since according to you and other pro-Islamists, Islam is a good thing to most, but there are some (the terrorists) who abuse it. Figures given by Islamic apologists claim that "only" 10-15% of Muslims support terror. Why not simply ban Islam? Then there would not be any Islamic terrorist, just as if we banned alcohol there would be no alcoholics! You found the answer! Let's also ban cars, antibiotics, pain medicine, television, water, exercise, sex, and everything else that human beings abuse. Your logic is flawed beyond hope.

"So sad...Jesus Christ ( may peace be upon him) has never drunk."

He never banned alcohol now did he? He did provide barrels of it for a wedding. You do need to brush up on your Bible studies before making pronouncements on it.

On Freud, you wrote: "ok, if you don;t accept Islamic point of view then what about the psychoanlytic theory of Sigmund Fried who says that the basic requirement of human is sex and he feels jelousy to his own father, and daughter feels jelousy to her mother during childhood. please read that theory which is written by a western ( not by Islamists) then you will come to know that human ( man and women) both have desires and when women shows her body figures, the desires of man are not controlled.. as a result social problems!!!!"

Funny, I don't recall, in all of my courses in psychology, ever hearing Freud or any other western psychologist say that men's sex drives are not controllable, or that women should enshroud themselves because man cannot control his sexual urges. This is a perfect example of how Islam abuses women. Men cannot control their animal lusts, so women are forced to live like lepers in order to make up for man's weakness.

Absurd! I would also ask you why rape is so commonplace, so pervasive, in Islamic society?

You go on: "I couldn't understand the line "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Any way the west is responsible for that. The strong media and communication and movies have played a vital role here."

I see. America is responsible for that too, huh? Tell me, is Islam ever responsible for any of its actions? Because all I hear from you is "blame it on the West". Is Islam so weak that it cannot stand on its own and accept responsibility for its own actions? And how can you blame American media when almost all American media is banned in so many Muslims countries?

Next, you boggle my mind with this claim: "As I said the human nature is that man seeks sex either he is a muslim or a non-muslim. That's why Islam being the universal religion ( as Islam is not the religion for only muslims) bans that evil."

I see. Sex is evil, so Islam bans it? Please do so. It'll save us a lot of war down the line if Islam would just ban sex because it's "evil". That way, you can just breed yourself out of existence. Unreal.

Moving on to the issue of teen births, you say: "The statistic, which I have taken, is from web "

So ask those people. Don't quarrel with me." If you don't belive the numbers, then show me proof to dispute it. Don't duck the argument.

"Any way do you know Islam says " held the marriages of your children before the age of 20. Why? Why Islam says so………. Because as I said above Islam knows that human has the need for sex, so if he/she doesn't held marriage soon after the age of 15 he may commit sins (like rape, and other forms illegal and unethical sex). So these countries follow the rules of Islam."

Oh, I see. Islam believes that man is too spiritually and emotionally weak to resist the urge to engage in sex until he is married, therefore Islam encourages pedophilia in order to give him early release of that urge? Islam, according to your claims, constantly appeases and caters to man's sins and man's inherent weaknesses. And why was it not a sin for Mohammed to have sex with a pre-pubescent girl? Or is that justified because he had a "need for sex". And if man has a need for sex, then why did Allah create such a powerful urge if man is going to simply abuse it? Your arguments make less sense the more you delve into them.

"But in US the below 20 teenage pregnancy is not because of marriages ,but because of illegal and unethical sexual relationships and intercourse which further causes social problems (as you agree)."

I don't recall agreeing with you there. And as I said in my last paragraph, the way I see it, Islam simply gives man an excuse for pedophilia. Allowing marriages that young means nothing in context of the argument. And of course I am still waiting to hear from you as to why, if rape is "illegal and unethical sex" as you call it, rape is so rampant in Islamic society. Why does Islamic society punish the victim rather than (or at least much more fervently than) the rapist himself?

Why is it that in Iran, that bastion of Islam according to your words, adolescent virgin females who are sentenced to hang for minor crimes are ordered to be gang raped so that they will no longer be virgins and thus can be hanged? If that's not barbarity, I honestly don't know what is!

On punishment, you wrote: "Listen dear… Islam stresses on punishment? I would add another example along with the above examples that Islam orders to cut the hands of the thief. Why? Again question is why? Because Islam is the religion which knows human nature. Human being if not punished on his sins always tries to attempt the sin again. So Islam stresses on punishment. But here on thing to clear that Islam forgives if a person from the bottom of his heart promises not to repeat the blunder again."

See, in CIVILIZED society, we don't believe in mutilating people or killing people for minor crimes, and we do not believe in punishing the victim. I know that's probably difficult for you to understand, but that is the norm out in the civilized (ie non-Muslim) world. A thief may receive both jail time and a fine, which discourages him from committing the crime again.

If you wish to remain in a barbaric, 12th-century system of justice, that's your choice. Just don't expect the civilized world to agree with, endorse, or tolerate such barbarity.

On suicide killings, you claim: "Yes I should accept honestly and we condemn the killing of innocent people by suicide bombing but please just think why any body kills himself along with other people ……… because if he is suppressed or somebody is violating his rights."

I see. So the innocent old women, the 3-month old babies...these people are suppressing or violating the rights of Muslims? How so? And once again, in CIVILIZED society, we have legal ways of dealing with violations of rights. That does not include going out and blowing up innocent people.

Perhaps you can explain to us why the PFLP (a Muslim terrorist group) blew up a Swiss airliner filled with Swiss citizens back in 1970, for example? Were the Swiss violating the rights of Palestinians? And remember, most of the airplane hijackings by Muslims in the 70's was done in order to blackmail the release of known Muslim terrorists who were captured by western governments. How do you justify that?

"And not only muslims are suicide bombers but if you go through history the first suicide bomber belongs to "Tamil Tigers" of Sri lanka" not a muslim."

And you're saying that makes it ok for Muslims to commit suicide bombings?

You invert reality with your next statement: "Islam is the religion of peace but the west has barbaric activities."

Actually, if you bother to look at reality for a moment, it is not Westerners or Christians or Jews or Buddhists who are kidnapping and cutting off heads of reporters in Iraq, raping and killing pre-pubescent children in Africa, hanging gang-raped virgins in Iran for minor transgressions, cutting off hands for stealing a loaf of bread in Saudi Arabia, etc. These are all actions of Islamic countries. That is where the barbarity is taking place. Christianity can (nowdays at least) claim to be a religion of peace. Buddhism can claim to be a religion of peace. For Islam to call itself a religion of peace in the light of reality is absurd beyond words!

Next, you say: "Anyway muslims are not exporting their beliefs in west but they perform their own activities. The western society I( if it allows human to do any activity according to his belief and will) should not resist muslims from their prayers, and muslim women from taking Hijaab(Scarfs)"

Wrong again, Pir. Islam is trying to force itself on Western nations. Islamic women want to wear their hijab (head scarf) when taking ID pictures such as drivers license pictures, which defeats the purpose of it in the first place. Everywhere that Islam is exported to, it demands accomodation and preferential treatment. Why is it that Muslims demand the right to wear a scarf across their face in America when taking an ID photo, when the very purpose of that photo is to be able to identify the person with the ID?

Why is it that Muslims are trying to institute Sharia law in England, France, America, etc? Why do they refuse to assimilate? Why, if Islam demands that other countries accomodate and make allowances for Muslims in Western countries, does Islam not show the same respect for others in their own countries? Why does Saudi Arabia not allow churches, Bibles, crucifixes, or Christian prayer? Why are none of those things allowed in Iran? Why does Islam always insist on a double standard? Can you answer that?

"Who promotes violence and terrorism? Who made the Taliban? Wasn't it US? Who has bombed the innocent women and children in Lebanon? Who attacked the Iraq without any solid proof? Who is now threatening a sovereign country (Iran) which does not accept their interference in its country). Muslims are coming to west, as I said earlier just for the sack of knowledge (and our religion stresses on it)."

You're fixated on the Taliban. Is the Taliban running Iraq? Iran? Syria? Lebanon? Saudi Arabia? The Palestinian Territories? You again spew the propaganda of Israel bombing women and children in Lebanon without addressing the fact that Hezbollah and other Islamic terrorists placed themselves in civilian populations and used those civilians as human shields. Talk about cowardly behavior!

As for Iran, you seem content to ignore that Iran has threatened to wipe an entire country and an entire people off the map (Israel). Only a fool would not oppose such a radical, insane regime from obtaining nuclear weapons.

On Hitler and the Nazis, you display an astounding ignorance of historical fact: "Never, Islam was against Nazis and has never done any side. In fact, the Muslims their selves were afraid of the brutalities of Hitler."

Back in the 1930's, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini (the Grand Mufti of Palestine) said (and I quote): "Our Fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world." Sami al-Joundi, one of the founders of Syria's ruling Ba'ath Party, said: ""We admired the Nazis. We were immersed in reading Nazi literature and books . . . . We were the first who thought of [an Arab] translation of Mein Kampf. Anyone who lived in Damascus at that time was witness to the Arab inclination toward Nazism." Anis Mansour, editor of the Egyptian paper October, wrote: "The World is now aware of the fact that Hitler was right, and that the cremation ovens were the appropriate means of punishing [the Jews]."

As is always the case in this discussion, your claims are wildly ignorant of both reality and historical fact. Try picking up a history book now and then.

You ask: "I couldn't understand how if you didn't dropped the bomb would have claimed millions of more lives."

Because the war would have lasted many more years and would have required a massive invasion of Japan, which would have resulted in millions more deaths (on both sides).

Once again, if you had any accurate knowledge of history, this would not be so puzzling to you. "But I understand one thing that the who ever has dropped the bomb on innocent civilians children and women, is very cruel."

Would it not have been more cruel to allow the deaths of MILLIONS more people had we NOT dropped the bomb? "Then the irony is that the bomber then declares himself as the front line supporter of human rights."

And the public record shows that America is the greatest supporter of human rights and freedoms in the entire world. "If you want to drop any bomb then drop it on the army headquarters and destroy arms and ammunition. Why are you killing innocent civilians … this shows your brutality that you have no value of human lives."

Perhaps you should suggest that to your fellow Muslims. Why doesn't Hamas, the PLO, and the other Muslim terror groups confine their suicide attacks to military targets? Why do they kill innocents? Their brutality shows no value of human lives. See? These morals and ethics you espouse apply to Muslims as well as non-Muslims.

That fact is, of course, routinely ignored by Muslims. It's only barbaric, inhuman, and evil when the other guy does it. This is precisely why westerners see Islam as a fanatical, barbaric, unreasoning, and uncivilized culture/religion.

On the subject of news, you say: "I watch BBC and CNN. Those channels said there was no any solid proof of weapons of mass destruction."

Yeah, there's some unbiased news sources! (rolling my eyes in amusement) "If you find and saw those weapons then where are they now? And why after seeing them you allowed any body to smuggle, is another question?"

They were smuggled into Syria before the war in Iraq started. We know this for a fact. We also know that we have found evidence of and actual proof of WMDs in Iraq. You haven't been keeping current. Back in 2004, the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission told the UN Security Council that Saddam shipped out tons of WMDs before the war started. The Iraqi Survey Group found extensive proof of WMD programs.

Even International Atomic Energy Agency director-general Mohammed El Baradei admitted that Saddam exported nuclear material. That was back in April '04. Where have you been?

"Yes of course. It was brutality but come to the point, who gave Saddam weapons of mass destruction? Not was It US. who gave those weapons to Saddam to attack Kurds and Iranians because Iranians were against US. Please don't ask stupid questions. My dear you did the same thing with Saddam as you did with Talibaan (i.e put the tissue paper in the dustbin after cleaning the nose.)"

So now you just admitted Saddam had WMDs because you claim America gave him WMDs. Earlier you said that those claims of WMDs in Iraq were false. You can't have it both ways. Either he had them or he did not. Which is it?

"You are repeating the same thing. The Hezbollah rockets were the response to the Israeli aggression dear. Muslim don;t initiate in agression they always strike back."

Actually, the battle started because Hezbollah invaded Israeli territory and kidnapped Israeli soldiers to use as hostages in order to obtain the release of fellow terrorists. Are you saying that the Hezbollah rocket attacks on civilian population centers in Israel is justified? Because if so, you would also have to concede that any civilian deaths you claim were inflicted on Muslim civilians by Israeli forces is also justified by that logic. Either it is acceptable to target civilian populations and innocent people, or it is not.

You can't say that it's ok for Islam to do so, but wrong for others. See, Muslims always want it both ways, as long as it balances out in their favor. "Not terror planning but fighting for their freedom and territories. But the actual terrorist is. …Israeli army killing innocent civilians daily."

Are you once again going to go against the face of reality and claim that Muslims are not committing acts of terror on a daily basis on innocent civilians in Israel? "Wow .....Israelis do their best to avoid any civilians. Very funny. The world is not blind dear. Who is being killed by Israeli army daily? Are the young children and women are terrorists who are gunned down by the Israelis."

Nice try. Unfortunately for your argument, the world (or at least those of us who bother to investigate) have seen that most of the "civilian slaughter" claimed by the Palestinians is in fact faked by the Palestinians themselves for propaganda reasons. And once again, you fail to condemn the massive amount of raping, murder, and kidnapping committed by Islam. Who is it that is raping, dismembering, maiming, and torturing adolescent children in Darfur, Sudan, etc? Muslims. Or is that simply acceptable because the Sudanese are violating the Muslim's rights? (Again I roll my eyes in exasperation).

"Never. I accept if there is any brutality made by the Muslims and I condemn them too."

Funny, you don't seem to be condemning it so much as you are making excuses for it. It's also not enough for you alone to condemn it. ISLAMIC SOCIETY AS A WHOLE MUST CONDEMN IT! Until that happens, Islam will remain a violent religion.

"And you are looking and have lust to occupy these oil- riched territories."

As usual, when backed into a corner, you change the subject. Why is it that these oil rich Muslim countries donate so little to charity? Much poorer nations contribute far more than rich Muslim countries do. Why is that? Can you answer that without obfuscating? "Ok then Pakistan was aiding and abetting the same terrorist when they were fighting against Soviet Union. Why didn't you threaten them at that time and why supported them?"

It's very simple. Pakistan was not at war with us at the time. Those people were on our side fighting against a common enemy, ie the Soviets. One tends not to attack one's allies unless and until they turn and attach you, in case you didn't know that.

On another subject, you wrote: "And you are accepting that Holocaust had happened and the Christians tried to clean the globe from the Jews."

I never accepted that the Christians tried to "clean the globe" of the Jews. The Nazis were the ones committing the Holocaust. Do YOU, Pir Sahab, deny that the Holocaust actually happened? Because once again, the facts of history do indeed prove it happened. To deny it is to be in denial or reality.

"Good civilized people don't debate barbarians."

Agreed. Which is why Bush refused to debate Ahmadinajad. :-) "Then why you people are making requests to Iran and Syria to involve in the Iraq crisis and help the west." Maybe because half the "insurgent fighters" (ie terrorists) in Iraq are sent in there by Syria and Iran? I guess you didn't know about that either?

"Why president Clinton and his daughter discussed with Iranians and Clinton's daughter wished to know about Islam and a copy of Holy Quran was send to her from Iran. Why you are sending IAEA and other sources to negotiate with Iranians? So sad of the double cross policies of the civilized nations."

What Clinton's daughter reading a Koran has anything to do with this discussion is beyond me, but we are negotiating via the IAEA in order to avoid having to go to war with Iran. I'd think most sane people would like to see that avoided, wouldn't you?

"And you too dear" On the contrary, what I say is backed up with reality and historical fact.

"However I accept most of the brutalities of the muslim in the history. But what is now going today is totally the tyranny, selfishness and brutality of the westerners."

I see. Please explain to me exactly how the "tyranny, selfishness and brutality of the westerners" is causing the slaughter, mass rapes, and genocide in Sudan by Muslims? I'd love to see how you justify that and twist reality in order to place the blame on America.

"Anyhow of course muslims have commited sins but not islam has allowed them to do so. You directly blame on Islam, that is not right."

Why then are the leaders of Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Palestinian Territories, etc coming out and publicly condeming these acts of terrorism?

Why aren't the muslim clerics out in force parading against such outrages? Why aren't all the so-called "moderate Muslims" out en masse, protesting the "usurption" of their "peaceful" religion by "a few misguided fanatics"? Islam has not allowed them do to so? How about the fact that over 90% of the 400 or so terrorist groups in the world are Islamic? If Islam denies such atrocities, then why is Islam so dominant in terror activity?

Explain the following verses from the Koran: "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176) "The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30) "Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29) "Unbelievers are those who say: 'God is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Surah 5:73) Sura 9:29-31 (fight against Jews and Christians until they are subdued, because God's curse is on them) "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "....Kill those who join other gods with Allah wherever you find them; besiege them, seize them, lay in wait for them with every kind of ambush...."(Sura 9:5). "When you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them...."(Sura 47:4). "....Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden....until they pay tribute..." (Sura 9:29). "Say to the infidels: If they desist, what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it Allah's." (Sura 8:39). "Proclaim a grievious penalty to those who reject faith." (Sura 9:3).

Seems to me that there is plenty of proof of the inherent violence of Islam.

You plead: "So please change this misconception and don't blame Islam and Quran."

There is no misconception. Do you deny what is clearly written in the Koran, and the Hadith, the Sunnah? Why is it that so many prominent Islamic clerics all over the world are preaching violence? Why is it that back in 2005, during a UN Human Rights Commission Meeting, the Muslim countries blocked an attempt to condemn killing in the name of religion? What did the Muslims object to? This text: "to condemn calls to kill, to terrorize or to use violence in the name of God or any religion." The Muslim representatives claimed it was "an attack on Islam". Which is what they claim every time someone calls them on their barbaric practices. Yusuf al-Qaradawi, dean of the College of Sharia and Islamic Studies at Qatar University, has publicl stated that terror attacks are permissible under Islam.

Once again, I must reiterate that reality proves your claims totally unfounded. The bottom line is that Islam should re-name itself the religion of perpetual outrage. When you compare Christianity to Islam, you see that Christianity is a religion of universal freedom with a loving, forgiving Creator, as opposed to Islam which is a religion of universal tyranny imposed by an intolerant Allah. I'm finished going point-by-point with you, since you are clearly unable to deal with reality and historical facts, and instead choose to spew pro-Islam propaganda on these forums.

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