RESPONSE TO Nuray

Submitted by Don (India), Oct 23, 2005 at 12:25

First i would like to thank Mr.Pipes for giving me this opportunity to express my view.

Dear Nuray
Thanks for all your replies. I have seen your posts, and the reason i didn't reply to you is that, till now i don't know whether you are asking or suggesting. The second reason is, Allonehob has replied to you in a beautiful and insightful replies, which unfortuantely you don't seem to understand.

YOU SAID
"You might have known about the formation of the Church of England by HENRY VIII who rewrite the Bible for his divorce and remarriage although the Bible itself condemned his marriage. He had right to have a divorce, but forbidden by man-made Holly book. I don't think divorce was forbidden by God. Just man-made rule overrided by a clever and powerful King"

ANSWER

Till now i didn't get you whether you are suggesting or asking, because you are contradicting yourself here. You said this that was the proof the Bibile was corrupted. Do you really understand what you are saying?
King Henry VIII had originally married Catherine of Aragon. Since she didn't give a child, and he was afraid to leave the throne without male heir. He then met and fell in love with Ann Boleyn. He wanted to marry Ann. In order to marry Ann, the marriage with Catherine had to be annulled by the Pope. But the Pope refused to give him approval. So Henry, in desperation, cut his affiliation to the Pope and formed his own Church (The Anglican Chruch) which allowed divorce. But Henry didn't change any verse of the Bible. This is what Jesus said regarding divorve.

........"And Jesus answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate. They said to Him, Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away? He said to them, Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but form the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." ( Matthew 19:4-9 KJV)

You see Jesus was against divorce. What King Henry did was, he just formed the English Church which allows divorce. But he didn't change or corrupt anything in the Holy Bible. HE DIDNOT CHANGE OR CORRUPT ANYTHING.The Church of England, has still the same Holy Bible like the rest of the world..you will find the same verse of Jesus which says divorce is not allowed. Unlike what you said, if he had changed it to suit him marriage, he would have changed the message of Jesus and instead change the Bible in to "divorce is allowed"...but he didn;t do that..he wouldnot dare change the Word of God, as the whole people of England would rise in uproar if he tries to "rewrite or edit" the Word of God. So where is your proof that the Bible is corrupted and waht did Kind Henry rewrite?? Can you please tell us what verse was rewritten?

YOU SAID
"I don't think divorce was forbidden by God"

ANSWER:
This is really a bizarre statment. Why would God permit divorce? do you think divorce is good? would you like to see, your father and mother divorced and living in differnet cities? do you like that? No sane person likes divorce.

Our Dear Lord Jesus Christ was trying to save the sanctity of marriage. Divorce is bad. Go to any country and try to see the life of a divorced woman. When a man divorces his wife, it is easy for the man to remarry and but it is difficult for the woman to find a man to marry her. She will be labeled "immoral" and all the blame is mostly on her and not on the husband. What about the children? do you know how tormenting it is for the children to see their father somewhere and their mother somewhere? See in todays western world, were husband and wife engage in battle in the field of courts, as to who "owns" the child...sometimes, the court decides the children should go to the mother sometimes to the father and the mother/father is allowed to see them 2 or 3 times in a week..so on and so on..do you think this is good? why not bear all your problems and try to live in happy family with all your children? Do you know how hard it is for a single mother/father to raise kids and do you know how difficult it is for the children to be with another "woman" whom their father remarried? she will never treat them like her children and most of the time they will lead a miserable life..same goes for the mother who marries another "man"...he will never treat her children like he is own..he will always treat them like strangers.
Even if a man and woman have problems in their life, they should try to save their problems and go and being good parents? For example, if you do evil things even 100 times in your house, would your father kick out of your house forever? He woud not kick you out coz he loves you, he will get angry and fight but then he will never forsake you...same thing if your wife/husband has become bad, isn't it better to pray for them for the sake of God, for the sake of your children, and try to change them instead of running to court for divorce? Even if, your wife becomes sick or loses her beauty or she talks too much or your love grows cold, will you kcik her out of your house? where is the commitment? for me i would not like it if my wife asks for divorce, if i beacme poor or i got sick or any reason..isn't that selfishness? Likewise i will not be selfish and kick her out just coz i didn't like her anymore. Nobody is perfect and we should bear one another and try to live in peace and harmony..If your car/any household goes spoilt and becomes bad, will you try to repair it till u fix it or throw it? nobody will ever throw but will do his best to repair them.. If your husband/wife becomes "bad", why don't you try to help them, understand them and "heal" them instead of "throwing" them out? are not humans more valued than hosuehold things?
Man is supposed to live with 1 wife. not 2 or 3 or 4 unlike in Islam. Let alone 4, even 2 wives you can't love them equally. What is the point of marrying 4? I have seen many men who are married to 4 and still are want more women. In the beginning, God didn't create 2 or 4 Eve for Adam. Only 1...And try to see the statistics of human population in any country at any name given time. The ratio of male to female is almost equal (50:50)..some times there will be a slight difference like 1 ration or 2 ratio up or down, but most of the time it is equal...You see if God had wanted us to marry each of us 4, then the ratio will be 1:4..but go to any country and see for the time of creation till now ..the ratio of male to female is nearly 1 and it will be like that for ever..God wants us to live 1 man to 1 woman...marrying 4 is pure dominance of males to females in Islam and it si adultery (halal prostituition)...would you like your mother to be the 3 or 4th wife of your father? would you like your mother to be alone in the house when your father has gone to spend the night with "one of the wives?"..you like that? sometimes when i hear stories of a rich Muslim Shiek going around with 4 of his wives following him from behind, i feel sorry for those women..what is this? would you like your mother to be among the 4 and following ur father from behind like sheep? you like that? do you like divorce? would you like your mother and father to be separated and live in different cities and you lost somewhere in between them? you like that? would you like your father one day come to your house and say "divorce 3 times" to your mother jsut like that as what most muslims used do?

You see Islam has no respect for women. Your prophet had i think 13 wives..why 13? isn't 1 enough? Islam if full of marrying 3 or 4 or Mutha marriage where it has become "legal prostitution" or "halal prostituition".

See at those western societies where divorce is norm of life. They are never happy. Any society which treats marraige like a dirt seems to be morally corrupt. . Jesus was trying to protect the sanctity or marriage and protect women as he discouraged divorce to create a happy families and a moral society.

YOU SAID
Actually, I can give you more recent example no need to go back to history books. There is a big pressure on churches about homosexual partnerships. This time situation is very difficult. Homosexuality is forbidden by all religions. Who can dare to change it? There are some. Anyway, sooner or later being a gay bishop will not be condemned by any church. Otherwise, Christianity may not survive without supporting Western values that serve for human desires not God wishes.

ANSWER:
Homosexuality is forbidden In Christianty. Read the above verse which i wrote to you what Jesus said..he said "man and woman"..he didn't say "man and man or woman and woman"....gay/lesbianism is forbidden.

If one church tries to approve it, then that Church is doomed. They will have their judgment from God. But the Bible forbids it..that's what matters to me and to every Christian. I don't give a damn what a new "bishop" comes and says...In Christianty, we don't murder or put suicide bomber to someone who is not agreeing with us..we try to teach him and advise him..the person is mature enough to know what is good and what is right..if he listens and repents, good for him, otherwise we leave it to God and he will judge him accordingly.

Christianty has never served western values. NEVER. The the late Pope John Paul was not like by some people, beacuse he refused to recognise gays and lesbians...Even the new Pope ( Pope Joseph Ratzinger) is more conservative...Gay/lesbianism has been in Western values for a long time, but the Chruch never appoves of gays and will never too..if they do well that is their personal abandoment of the Word of God.. and i will be the first one to object them. The Bible condemns it. That is what matters to me and that's what should matter to any Christian, bishops are humans and tend to have their own interpretations.. bishops come and go, civilisations come and go, but the word of God is eternal.. we Christians have the Bible and and Jesus as our guide. that's what matters to all of us.

YOU SAID
Why not other books but Quran only is preserved? Answer is very simple because it is the last version of holy books coming from the same source.

ANSWER:
Just because quran came last doesnot make it "holy"...and the sources are not the same...The God the Bible has "chosen Jewish people" who raised many propets among them (Jesus and Mary are Jews too)...On the other hand the Allah of Mohammed hates Jews and abuses, curses them and he wants all Jews and Christians in Hell...how the sources can be the same?

YOU SAID
"Bring some parts of all the holy books together to create a new version. Can you? Quran says impossible"

ANSWER:
Anybody in his langauge can write a book better than quran. What does it have except twisted Biblical stories, errors and hateful and cruel verses that do not appeal to the human conscience. Why has the quran to say it is impossible. this just shows that the writer of the quran is not confident of himself .If quran is the work of the Islamic Allah or Jibreel why challenge humans? God is much much greather than his creations..why does he write a book and then challenges his creation? This just shows that quran is merely the handi-work of humans..only human can write such and then challeges other humans to make them believe that it came from God.

YOU SAID
"Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him, if not a messenger, should be a genious who understood all the religions very well and made Islam very clear to his followers. The memory size of his brain should be at least double or triple to use huge amount of knowledge at the age of 40. Remember that humans can learn quickly at very young ages not getting older. No body saw him while writing and reading. He was illiterate. Creation of a new book, new religion, new state without writing and reading is amazing success".

ANSWER:
O fcourse Muhammed understood the religions very well. He grew up surrounded by Jewish tribes and had a close relative who was a Christian. But he was a pagan till 40. Infact we can say that Muhammed was a Muslim only for 13 years coz for 40 years he was pagan like his father Abdullah and all his Qurayesh tribe. His memory does not have to be big. All he did was, he borrowed all the Biblical stores and joined it with the customs of the Qurayesh.

Bukhari:V4B56N814 "There was a Christian who embraced Islam and he used to write the revelations for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again he used to say: ‘Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.'"

Do you know that the Qureysh used to worship Kabah? do you know that they used to fast? do u know that they used to cut hands of a thief? do you know that they used to throw stones at the "devil"?..almost all the rituals were there in Arabia. Would you please if you want try to study the ancient lifestyle and belief of Ancient Arabs like the Qureysh? You will find many similarites. Muhammed didn't create all those rituals and beliefs in just 13 years of his life. His memory need not be big and he is not genuis either. Read the hadiths properly. You will say Muahmmed didn't say this or i don't recognise hadith.

YOU SAID
What does the "image of God" mean for religious people? For Jews and Christians, human beings are made in the image of God. In Quran Allah says it is not true. Muslims do not — indeed, cannot — draw a picture or carve a statue of Allah because We Muslims believe that Allah is unlike any of His creatures".

ANSWER:
You have a shallow understanding of Christianity.The author of the Quran also didn't know what we meant when we said that. If the author of Quran was God, then he would definitely know what we mean by that. You see Muhammed thought we believed as God is like us human, that's why he wrote like that. This just shows the Quran is human source and not divine. When God created man in his image, it doesnot mean "figurative" image. As God has dominion of the Heavens he created them in his image to be his "representatives" on Earth. We are God'd representatives on Earth. As God is just, we are created to be just, As God is love, we are created to be loving, as God is forgiving we are created to be forgiving. That's what is meant when it is written "God created us in his image. Read Genesis 1:26-28 properly..he said "....and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth " As God has the dominion of the heavenly body we are created to be his "representatives or Ambassadors" on Earth. We have been given the power over all the fowls, wild or domestic creatures and to subdue and tilt and use Mother Earth and eat of her yields. The "Image or likeness" is in the authroity and not in body shape. It doesnot mean God has hair like us or nails, teeth or nose like us. If you see God pictured as human it is "symbolic", some people picture him as a loving father and does not mean that he looks like us.

Further on Genesis 1:27 says "So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them"..... So according to you does God look like the male or the female? He looks like neither. The "Image or likness" is in the authroity and not in body shape. It doesnot mean God has hair like us or nails, teeth or nose like us.

YOU SAID
"The image of God or Jesus means a white male for Westerners. Although Jesus is painted as a white person he was from Middle East. He should have dark skin. Christianity couldn't cure racism. Why?, Because it is shaped by people having power on Churches"

ANSWER:
So what are you trying to say? are you saying that when we picture Jesus, we should put less color and make him look more dark? Jesus is not a white man. It is a known fact that Jesus comes from Nazareth and born in Bethelem (in Israel). So whether he is pictured by men as white, hispanic or black, it is human fantasy and it will not change that Jesus is not white man.

Christianity has nothing to do with racism. If white people are racist, it is not becaue of Christianity. Racism is a human nature. It is there all over the world. Even in some families, you hear stories of mother/father giving more love to their son/daughter who was born "white/fair" compared to her/his own brothers/sisters Your name (Nuray) sounds like Indonesian or Malay name. If you are dark in skin try to go to Saudi Arabia or other Arab countries and see how your Arab masters will treat you. Every country, specially in Asia and Africa have people who have different colors. Go and see how they treat each other. In Africa/Asia, the commuinty who are fair in skin will look "superior" to the community of their own country who are dark.

No need to look far. I will give you a recent example. Have you heard of the genocide ion Sudan (Africa) by Muslim militans which happened 2-3 months back? The Arab Muslim North went of rampaging, looting and raping their own Muslim people (the Darfur people) who were very black compared to them. The early Arab Muslims use to trade in slavery from Africa. They use to take black Africans as slaves. Even Muhammed is said to like white (fair) skin. Some Muslim historians say Muhammed like 3 things- white skin,Perfume and women. Read the following.

Ibrahim, however, was the son of Maria, the Copt. She was fair-skinned, curly- haired, and beautiful. `A´isha narrated: "When Ibrahim was born, the Messenger of God came to me and said, 'See how much he resembles me!' I said, 'I see no resemblance.' The Messenger of God said, 'Don't you see how WHITE and robust he is?' I replied, 'Anyone would turn white if he received so much semen.
.
It is your religion, and your prophet who were racist. The Arabs hate the black color but they have to act as if they like it otherwise they will be in big problem as most followers of Islam are blacks. Read the following to see how racist your Prophet was.

Ishaq:243 "I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom." [9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

Ishaq:144 "A rock was put on a slave's chest. When Abu Bakr complained, they said, ‘You are the one who corrupted him, so save him from his plight.' I will do so,' said Bakr. ‘I have a black slave, tougher and stronger than Bilal, who is a heathen. I will exchange him. The transaction was carried out."

Bukhari: V9B89N256 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.'"

Ishaq:405 "It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah's army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent.

Ishaq:374 "The black troops and slaves of the Meccans cried out and the Muslims replied, ‘Allah destroy your sight, you impious rascals.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N137 "The Prophet said, ‘Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.'"

Racism has nothing to do with Christianity. Jesus Christ was compassionate to all humans. In Bible (Book of Acts) there is a story of Black man who was baptised and accepted Christianty. Now i challenge you to get me a racist word spoken by Jesus Christ. Can you get me one please?

YOU SAID
"We love both Allah and Muhammed (peace be upon him) with our hearts, not with our eyes"

ANSWER:
For us Christians we show our Love to God by deeds not simply loving in the heart. Jesus said "if you love me do my commandments and love one another".. we try to show our love by deeds not by simply "trying to love in the heart".

YOU SAID
"Dear Allonehob, We Muslims have basic knowledge about Christianity & Jesus, that is available in our holly book, Quran. We Muslims recognise Christianity and accept Jesus as a messenger. Do you see how lucky we are?"

ANSWER:
What makes you lucky? just believing Jesus is a prophet? Jesus Christ had preached love and compassion. Why don't you follow him then? Actually the whole Islamic belief is cursed because it dosenot believe in foegiveness, love and compassion and not following the Golden rule. Muhammed assasinated, murdered his opponents. If according to you Jesus was a Muslim why didn't Jesus fight when he was harassed by the Jewish and Roman authorities? why didn't Jesus declare Jihad or be suicide bomber when he was in danger? why?...

YOU SAID
" We Muslims have neither image of Allah nor Muhammed (peace upon him). That's the clear crystal proof that Islam is not product of any mind but Allah. Christian churches are full of statues of Jesus & Mary"

ANSWER:
Having not the picture of Muhammed dosenot make your religion real. Christian churches if they have picture or statues it is "symbolic". we don't worship the statue or picture. We are wise enough to realise that those pictures are printed at some printing press and are not the real picture of Jesus. For me what i look at Jesus picture, i imagine Jesus walking, sitting in Mount Olivs teaching, i imagine him healing the sick...i don't bow down at the picture and no Christians bows down or worships pictures.
Look at how Muslims go by plane on Haj just to kiss the black stone..that is stone worship..and the Kaab is called "house of God"..is not God every where? why he needs house? why Muslims have to go all the way to kaba taking flights and crush each other there and sometimes get killed just to kiss the balck stone? That is idolatry. The balck stone has no divine power was worshipped for a long time by pagan Arabs before islam.

YOU SAID
"In modern western society there is no room for love. Test your community at rush hours fall on the street or metro and see how people are willing to give you time? What kind of love are you talking about"

ANSWER:
I can't believe what you are saying. Are you saying that since life is modern and fast we should not have love? Jesus said love one another. Even if life becomes hard rush or hectic we can still love another. What has the traffic rush got to do with it? what has life's difficulties got to do with it? Instead of appreciating Jesus' message of love, you are instead trying to erase it just beacuse life nowadays is tough! what kind of mentality is this? why is the message of Christ, the message of love and peace so opposed to? Why do you try to resist love and peace? i can't believe this..so are you saying that since modern life is tough and love has no place we should abandon ,love and keep on fighting and abusing each other? is that your message?

The more people become wild and abusive in this world, the more the world will realise that we need the message of Jesus Christ..the message of Love, Mercy, Forgiveness and Compassion and not the message of Muhammed (an eye for an eye) which adds more fuel to the fire.

I have answered your questions. Please try to get me the thing which you said King Henry rewrote. I will be waiting for your replies and since you have raised the question of validity of Quran i'm glad for that and i will be raising some questions for you in that matter.

Best Regards,
Don.

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