Reply to Sohail

Submitted by Rajesh (India), Sep 22, 2006 at 02:11

In reply to Sohail:

Is this the best you can come up?: The whole of Christianity is a pagan thing. Paul who never met Jesus. this made a bunch of lies up he introduced Roman pagan in to Christianity.

Paul (Saul before his conversion) was a persecutor of the Church. He was present during the martyrdom of St. Stephen, the first Christian martyr.

Acts 7:58: The witnesses put down their clothes at the feet of a young man called Saul.

Acts 8:1: Saul approved of the killing.

Acts 8:3: Saul then began doing great harm to the Church; he went from house to house arresting both men and women and sending them to prison.

Acts 9 tells us of Saul's encounter with Jesus, his conversion to Christianity, and the response he received from those who were believers who were unwilling to believe that Saul (now Paul) had actually converted.

It seems you got all worked up with St Pauls' warning to the Galatians (1:8) about the angel from heaven business. So instead of coming to the truth about the so-called religion of Islam, the best thing you can do is to discredit St Paul ! It would have been too much to expect otherwise from you. Why don't you just go ahead (which you are doing anyway) and say that all of the Bible is wrong , only the Koran is right, and that we all must believe Mohammad's little encounter with the so-called angel of which we have no witnesses other than Mohammad himself? (The writings of the Koran and the life of Mohammad prove what sort of an angel appeared to him anyway). What would you say if I said that last night Angel Gabriel appeared to me and told me that Mohammad got it wrong, there was a little communication problem, that it was not Mohammad but Rajesh who is the last of the prophets and after me there would be no one else? (I would have no witnesses to prove it, but my word for it). Would you believe? The first thing you would ask for is proof.

( I compiled the following from Life of Christ by (the late) Fulton Sheen, one of the greatest bishops of the Catholic Church)

Reason dictates that if anyone actually came from God, the least thing that God could do to support His claim would be to pre-announce His coming. Automobile manufactures tell their customers when to expect a new model. If God sent anyone from Himself with a vitally important message for all men, it would seem reasonable that He would first let men know when His messenger was coming, where He would be born, where He would live, the doctrine He would teach, the enemies He would make, the program He would adopt for the future, and the manner of His death. By the extent to which the messenger conformed with these announcements, one could judge the validity of his claims.

Reason further assures us that if God did not do this, then there would be nothing to prevent any impostor from appearing in history and saying, "I come from God," or "An angel appeared to me in the desert and gave me this message." In such cases there would be no objective, historical way of testing the messenger. We would have only his word for it, and of course he could be wrong.

If a visitor came from a foreign country to Washington and said he was a diplomat, the government would ask him for his passport and other documents testifying that he represented a certain government. His papers would have to antedate his coming. If such proofs of identity are asked from delegates of other countries, reason certainly ought to do so with messengers who claim to have come from God. To each claimant reason says:" What record was there before you were born that you would be coming...."

There were no predictions about Buddha, Confucius, Lao-tze, Mohammad, or anyone else; but there were predictions about Christ. Others just came and said, "Here I am, believe me." They were, therefore, only men among men and not the Divine in human. Christ alone stepped out of that line saying;" Search the writings of the Jewish people and the related history of the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans." (A poetic way of putting things Sohail)

(You can search out the Old testament prophecies yourself, Sohail, and you will find more than enough pointing to Jesus. It seems you have access to a Bible, otherwise let me know and I will do it for you.)

Turn to the pagan testimony. Tacitus, speaking for the ancient Romans, says, "People were generally persuaded in the faith of the ancient prophecies, that the East was to prevail, and that from Judea was to come the Master and Ruler of the world." Suetonius, in his account of the life of Vespasian, recounts the Roman tradition thus, "It was an old and constant belief throughout the East, that by indubitably certain prophecies, the Jews were to attain the highest power."

China had the same expectation; but because it was on the other side of the world, it believed that the great Wise Man would be born in the West. The Annals of the Celestial Empire contain the statement: In the 24^th year of the Tchao-Wang of the dynasty of the Tcheou, on the 8^th day of the 4^th moon, a light appeared in the Southwest which illuminated the king's palace. The monarch, struck by its splendor, interrogated the sages. They showed him books in which this prodigy signified the appearance of the great Saint of the West whose religion was to be introduced into their country."

The Greeks expected Him, for Aeschylus in his Prometheus six centuries before His coming wrote: Look not for any end, moreover, to this curse until God appears, to accept upon His Head the pangs of thy own sins vicarious."

How did the Magi of the East know of His coming? Probably from the many prophecies circulated through the world by the Jews as well as through the prophecy made to the Gentiles by Daniel centuries before His birth.

Cicero, after recounting the sayings of the ancient oracles and the Sibyls about a "King whom we must recognize to be saved," asked in expectation, "To what man and to what period of time do these predictions point?" The Fourth Eclogue of Virgil recounted the same ancient tradition and spoke of "a chaste woman, smiling on her infant boy, with whom the iron age would pass away."

Suetonius quoted a contemporary author to the effect that the Romans were so fearful about a king who would rule the world that they ordered all children born that year to be killed – an order that was not fulfilled, except by Herod.

Not only were the Jews expecting the birth of a Great King, a Wise Man and a Savior, but Plato and Socrates also spoke of the Logos and of the Universal Wise Man "yet to come." The Sibyls spoke of a "Universal King"; the Greek dramatist of a savior and redeemer to unloose man from the primal "eldest curse." All these were on the Gentile side of the expectation. What separates Christ from all men is that first He was expected; even the Gentiles had a longing for a deliverer or a redeemer. This fact alone distinguishes Him from all other religious leaders.

You say, Sohail, that St Paul made up a bunch of lies. Hmmm.... What's there not to argue that the Koran is a bunch of lies, but why waste time on proving a lie is a lie. It is much more satisfying to prove that the Truth is the Truth.

If St Paul was lying when he was writing to the Galatians(1:8) in the early part of the Christian era about the angel from heaven business, how is that this angel from heaven prediction is accurately fulfilled centuries later by Mohammad and his angel from heaven claim? Surely, you have better sense!

Shalom!

Rajesh.

"Speak up, present your case, let them put their heads together!

Who foretold this in the past, who revealed it long ago?

Was it not I, Yahweh?

There is no other god except me, no saving God, no Savior except me!

Turn to me and you will be saved, all you ends of the earth,

for I am God , and there is no other.

By my own self I swear it;

what comes from my mouth is saving justice:

All shall bend the knee to me,

by me every tongue shall swear, saying, 'In Yahweh alone are saving justice and strength,'

until all those who used to rage at him come to him in shame.

In Yahweh the whole race of Israel finds justice and glory.(Isaiah 45:21)

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".