Nasser and cyprus

Submitted by dhimmi no more (United States), Aug 25, 2010 at 07:57

For the readers this thread is about Cyprus and my interest in understanding what really happened more so in regard to the relationship between Nasser and makarious and for those of you not familiar with Arabic I will provide you with a few definitions that would help you to understand what I'm really saying

1. al-Ikhwan al-muslimeen are the Muslim brotherhood established in Egypt in the late 1920's

2. Ikhwani means he who is a member of the Muslim brotherhood

3. kalam fadi (Arabic) and hasbara (Hebrew) means just about the same or misinformation, lies and fabrications that everyone know that they are misinformation lies and fabrications but in due time it becomes the truth! And example in the case of israel is the so called "the broadcsats" and in the case of let us say Egypt that Nasser had qawa3id siriyya (secert military bases) all over Egypt and in due time he will be able to destroy israel. Both claims are lies and fabrications but to this day you still hear from Israelis about those broadcasts that never existed and from many Egyptians that there must be some qawa3id siryya some where

4. The Egyptian revolution took place in July of 1952 and Mohamed Naguib was the first president then Nasser took over in 1953 and almost all of the officers involved were members of al-ikhwan al-muslimeen Anwar el-Sadat included but I have never seen evidence that Nasser was ikhwani as a matter of fact he was 3ulmani (secularist)

> apologize for responding so late. It seems I missed your comment. "

OK

>A. The only type of "peace" Nasser wanted with Israel involved its de facto elimination. At one stage he sure did but this does not mean that he wanted peace with israel as early as 1955 but the policy makers in Israel did want to have any peace and why is that?"A. Nasser demands' were completely unreasonable. Israel couldn't possibly allow the "refugees" in, and losing its southern port would have cut it off from its only oil supplier than (the then-friendly Iran), nevermind how unjustifiable the demand was. I don't think a peace offer means "Israel acquiesces to any Arab demand which does not directly involves eliminating Israel, followed by negotiations from a totally uneven position on the rest of the Arab demands, with the unspoken option of Arab war again on the table if it doesn't comply"

No not true I do not think that Nasser went that far in his talks prior to 2/ 1955

It seems that what Nasser wanted was peace on Egypt's borders and prosperity for his people. The Palestinians? Early on he really did not care

>(This description matches nearly all of the supposed Arab peace offers, especially the "Saudi Plan". Maybe there were a very few exceptions. e.g. a Syrian peace offer in 1949 from the unstable Za'im regime (overthrown 4.5 months later) which involved ceding half of Israel's major water source).

No I'm not interseted in any issue but Egypt and israel and off course the tragedy in Cyprus

>"And how do you explain the shameful Lavon affair?" Both sides played dirty. At least the "shameful" affair didn't kill anyone, contra the Egyptian attacks.

The only reason for this shameful affair is that the likes of Ben Gurion was not interested in peace and the victims were Egyptian Jews that happen to live in two of the most cosmopolitan and sophisticated cities of the 1950's Middle east and that is Cairo and Alexandria that should not have been dragged in this sordid affair and the end result that two of them were hanged by Nasser and he could not have done it any other way as he had to hang two ikhwani terrorists that wanted to kill him so he did not want to appear soft on the Jews or anyone. So your claim is incorrect

">Oh, and he wouldn't start negotiations unless the head of the Mossad came to Egypt to talk... An obvious ruse. Could you rpovide us readers with evidence that Gamal Abd el-Nasser indeed would not negotiate unless the head of Mossad vistis him? Really? This would be very interesting or is this hasbara?" That was in 1966. See [1].

You must pardon me but you are a careless reader I was asking about the period between 1952 until the Gaza attack in 1955 because by 1955 he did not believe that israel was ready for peace

>This wasn't the only time. In Jan. 1955 Nasser wanted a meeting with Yadin, but the death sentence given in the Lavon affair made Sharett reconsider.

Where is your reference? As far as I know he did talk to Moshe Sharett in 1954 and 1955 again it could be yadin. It would be interesting to see what is in the israeli archives

>Later the events leading and following Gaza ended all talk. ">B. The attack on Gaza was a retaliation for the numerous acts of terror by the Egyptian sponsored fayadeen...

This is hasbara/kalam fadi there is no evidence to support such claim as a matter of fact he made it very clear to (?) Moshe Sharett that he wanted peace on his border with israel this does not mean that he did not support el-fida'iyeens attacks after the Gaza attack

Wait a minute do you know the date of this Gaza attack i'm talking about or is this just BS?could you tell us more about nasser's so called sponsored el-fida'eyeen's attacks?"

>B. The Gaza attack happened in 28 February 1955.

True

> There were at least three separate attacks by fadayeen infiltrators from Egypt before that same year, and an entire list of attacks the previous years before that. [2] has a partial list of attacks from both sides.

Then provide us with the evidence from historians that such attacks were sponsored by Nasser prior to ealy 1955. Let me help you there is no such evidence and by the way I have no reason to believe neither official Israeli or Egyptian sources as both sources were involved in big time hasbara/kalam fadi

>Hundreds of Israeli citizens were killed (I find somewhat conflicting sources here. Anyway, ADL says it's about 260).

Oh is this hasbara/kalam fadi too?

For the readers; prior to 1955 those palestianians that crossed the border were people that lost their homes in what was then Israel and there is evidence to support your assertion

>The context is as follows: since the end of the 1948 war, Arabs have infiltrated into Israel.

As expected

> There were numerous reasons for that (some were Palestinians wishing to go to their villages, some were copper (and other) thieves, some wanted to kill Jews), but by the early fifties, the movement had become completely military. We know for a fact the Egyptian governor of the Gaza Strip supported them and organized them into units[3]. After an attack at Rehovot, one of the fedayeen was found to have a letter of orders from that Egyptian governor[4].

Again could you provide us with what historians are saying because as far as I can tell there were no plans by Nasser prior to the Gaza attack of 1955 to destabilize his border with Israel

">C. Nasser never had the slightest interest in democracy, So?> as anyone observing the regime he has created can see. He sure was better then islam and islamists"C. I was responding to your "Nasser admired America and its democracy". This is inaccurate.

Not true did you read his book falsafat el-thawra? He very much admired the US and its democracy but this does not mean that he wanted to emulate the US democracy as he believed that his biggest enemy al-ikhwan would not play by the rules of democracy. and when you visit NYC go and check the Egyptian Temple at the Metropolitan Meseum given by Nasser as a gift to the people of the US following the fact that Eisnehower told the Brits and the French and the israelis to get lost following the 1956 war

>Nasser admired its power as he admired USSR's power.

Sure and what is wrong with that?

>Of democracy he had no use,

So?

>and he probably sympathized more with the USSR (the non-aligned movement was always more favourable to the USSR)

so?.

>His relationship with Russia was very complicated he would have rather obtained his weapons from the US and money from the US inorder to build the high dam but again he had to select Russia as he had no other options

Oh the Brits and the French? he felt that both countries are less than world powrers

> I think try to choose between him and Islamism is an anachronism: at the time the Islamists were weak, and the Arabs had a barely functioning civil society in the 50's before the coups, dictatorships and demographic changes strangled it. It wasn't a choice between dictatorship and Islamism at the time.

Very wrong. I'm always amazed by the lack of understanding of many educated Israelis about their neighbors and in this case Egypt. So here is a quick over view of radical islam in Egypt

1. al-ikhwan al-muslimeen was established by Hasan el-Bana the grand father of Tariq Ramadan in the late 1920's and by the late 1940's they were a major threat to the government in Egypt

2. The father of the Ground Zero mosque Feisal Abdel Rauf was also ikhwani and he left Egypt in a hurry in 1948 following the assassination of the then Prime Minster el-Noqrashi who was shot by two members of al-ikhwan

3. In 1950 Syed Qutb the master mind of today's islamism went to the US to study and returned to Egypt very radicalized and he was put in jail where he wrote his book "ma3alim fi el-tariq" which is today's islamists holy book

And by the late 1940's al-ikhwan were a significant force in Egypt and it seems that Nasser warned the US and Israel about the rise of islamism and now guess what? no one listened to him and now the US and Europe and israel have to deal with this menace from Tariq Ramadan in Europe and Abdel Rauf here in the US

So your claim that this is anachronistic is not true

Stay tuned for part two

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