Christian Nation

Submitted by Mitch van Biljon (United States), Feb 18, 2008 at 17:23

Dennis, I am a christian and find the trinity heresy. There are many churches that deny the trinity. I guess by your definition they are also not christian. I have heard of the Jefferson bible and yes he did not believe that miracles were literal. He still saw himself and categorically stated he is a Christian. He loved the teachings of Christ.

Now you and I may disagree with his views but in was at a time where the reformation period was in place and there were many views about christian doctrine. When he claims to be a christian I take him at his word regardless of his views and how they differ from mine. "None of the first six presidents (Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe and Quincy Adams) believed in the virgin birth, trinity or resurrection. Their references to God clearly reflected their deistic or Unitarian outlooks. This was the God of Reason, the Prime Mover. Not the God of Revelation. When they referred to religion, it was the religion of Voltaire, Paine, and other prominent deists".

How many churches today believe in revelation in our day and age? Only the Mormons. Show me the words of the founding fathers not interpretations by others. I at least quoted the words that they uttered. "Dishonest fudamentalists today know this but still try to pass off these God quotes as proof that America was fouded as a trinitarian Christian nation. No, it was not! That's why the term "Novus Ordo Seclorum" (New Order of the Ages) appeared on our currency from the beginning (in contrast to "In God We Trust", which was added in my lifetime). Christianity became the religion of Europe in the 4th century, C.E. How many democracies were there in Europe in the 1.400 years that elapsed up to 1776? Why was there still slavery in Christian nations (incluidng the USA) until the last half of th 19th Century?" When the founding fathers say we were formed as a christian nation I take them at their word. Period.

Yes, many "christians" performed ghastly acts under the banner of christianity. Does that make Christ less honorable and less of a God? People commit many crimes under the name of equality, for the "good" of the nation. I would hope that we all call evil what it is whenever we see it. "Please explain why there is not a sIngle reference to God, Jesus, or Christianity in the text of the Constitution, and why there is an explicit prohibition against religious tests, which would alow atheists or pagans to hold office (as Washington approvingly acknolwledged)." Many founders found the lack of reference to christianity in the constitution a weakness in the constitution, but the first amendment resolved that. Even though it was a christian nation does not mean that everyone must be christian or is that what you are implying.

If the majority of founding fathers state this is a Christian nation then I also take them at their word. Why would one have to state in a constitution it is a christian nation when that is a personal choice. How would you word this "requirement"? No, it is a christian nation but we do not force people to be christians and hence there is no need to reference it in the constitution. The first amendment meets all my requirements. "Please explain why, for decades after the Constitution was drafted, the Christian clergy was its fiercest critics, denouncing it as a heretical, godless document (which it was!), and its drafters as heathens (which many were).

Please explain the repeated efforts of fundamentalist Christians in the 19th Century to amend the Constitution to include references to Jesus as Saviour?" If you understood the social environment at the time, there were many churches trying to influence government. It was a time of religious zeal and extremism. Your point is what? I understand why efforts to get christian doctrine into the constitution were made and why they were repealed. I do not find this being a christian nation and no reference being made to christianity in the constitution as an issue. They are not mutually exclusive.

There is no need to put that this is a christian nation in the constitution. What would that accomplish? It is a document that sets out our rights and form of government not what religious beliefs we have to hold to. The first amendment is again good enough for me. What made the founding fathers great were that they knew this to be a christian nation and yet learnt from Britian not to force christianity on people. Liberty means freedom to choose. In fact I believe that Christ would be offended if we tried to force people to be christians as that would nullify the sacred principle of free agency.

"While you're at it, explain why both Jefferson and Madison opposed paid chaplains in the Congress and why Jefferson refused to declare a Day of Thanksgiving as president." Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention. It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society, immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation. Maybe you can explain to me why the rest of the founding fathers supported paid chaplains and a day of Thanksgiving?

Heck people disagree on many things, it is seldom that politicians agree on anything and if that is the case then we had better be very worried. Are you implying that christians must agree on every political decision? Christians cannot even believe in the same christian doctrine, why would you expect them to agree on political issues? The founders were not immune to disagreement and expecting them to be is ludicrous. "Mitch, you would love the Constitutiion of the Confederate States of America. God is mentioned ight in the preamble. A lot of good it did them."

That statement alone told me a lot about you. Are you implying I am a slave lover? Are you implying that I believe all men are not equal under the law? Making reference to the confederate states is an old age tactic to try and gain sympathy through emotional blackmail. Except that this attempt underlies your liberal anti christian views. Sorry, I for one will not fall for such a devious trap that has no relevance whatsoever. You also seem to be implying that God does not protect those that believe in him? Do you think that there were no christian yankees?

If you understood a little about the civil war you will also understand that many southern states went to war not in support of slavery but in opposition to the federal government interference in states affairs. A strictly correct interpretation but in defiance of the declaration of independence that all men are born equal.

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".