Shaji: However much you may twist and turn you cannot escape the truth that Islam is false

Submitted by Plato (India), Apr 14, 2009 at 03:54

Shaji, you wrote:

>>Yes, Qur'an said to kill "mushriqeen"………!!!!. But where….in the battlefield where those 'mushriqeen" come to fight to exterminate Muslims. If you remove the context, that is "battlefield", it could have satisfied your desire to portray "Islam spread by sword". Before you criticize, learn something Mr. dhimmi……<<

The verse does not mention battlefield. This is what it says:

009.005 YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The verse says 'slay the pagans WHEREVER ye find them'. Does it sound like the Koran is talking only of the battle field?

You can also wait in ambush for them anywhere. You don't lie in wait for your enemy on the battlefield. The Koran is asking you to exterminate the unbelievers when the forbidden months are past.

>>If Mushrik had the option to either convert to Islam or killed by sword, why huge number of people of other faiths still living in Muslim part of the world….??. Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are over 22 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians.<<

The Copts are people of the book and were tolerated to live as dhimmis. The Arabian peninsula was almost entirely pagan idol worshippers. Can you find a single one there now? They were either put to the sword or converted. The only idol worshippers are the Arabs and other Muslims themselves who have to prostrate themselves facing a black stone and are required to go on pilgrimage to this place, kill millions of animals to please the Lord of this stone and run between two peaks which the Koran says are Allah's symbols (IDOLS):

002.158 YUSUFALI: Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them………

>>Also, if Islam spread by sword, why there was no widespread killing at the time of Makkah victory, which became the turning point of the influx of people to Islam in early Islamic period…..??. Open your eyes and realize who is ignorant……!!!!.<<

Would anybody want to kill his own relatives and that of his followers? Mecca was full of blood relatives of the invaders. He did kill some who had ridiculed him.

If there was influx to Islam it was clearly because of the fear of Muhammad's sword. If you know your history, as soon as Muhammad died many tribes apostatized and Abu Bakr had to fight several wars (the ridda wars) to force them back into Islam.

Narrated Abu Huraira:When Allah's Apostle died and Abu Bakr became the caliph some Arabs renegade (reverted to disbelief) (Abu Bakr decided to declare war against them), 'Umar, said to Abu Bakr, "How can you fight with these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever said it then he will save his life and property from me except on trespassing the law (rights and conditions for which he will be punished justly), and his accounts will be with Allah.' " Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight those who differentiate between the prayer and the Zakat as Zakat is the compulsory right to be taken from the property (according to Allah's orders) By Allah! If they refuse to pay me even a she-kid which they used to pay at the time of Allah's Apostle . I would fight with them for withholding it" Then 'Umar said, "By Allah, it was nothing, but Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision (to fight) and I came to know that his decision was right."

Whose ignorance is showing, Shaji?

>>If you are a truth-seeker with good intentions, just explore through Qur'an without a prejudiced mind.<<

This means you have explored the Koran with unprejudiced mind and found it wonderful. What did your unprejudiced mind think when you read this verses 9:111 or 9:28 and 9:29. They made me look at all Muslims with suspicion.

>>Allah didn't make you infidel. HE has given you the freedom to select right from wrong. Nobody is Muslim because he born in Muslim family and follow principles against Islam.<<

I can see Islam has really penetrated your heart. Allah claims He is responsible for all creation. So an infidel is Allah's creation. Only Muslims seem unable to understand this simple logic. It is Allah who made you a believer, and dhimmi no more and me infidels.

>>When the person willfully chooses this ideology and submits his will to ONE and ONLY GOD, then only he becomes Muslim. So the CHOICE is yours……<<

How can there be a choice when Allah, the Exalted in Power, Wise, threatens the most horrendous punishment for disbelief?

004.056 YUSUFALI: Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

>>Coming to the issue of abrogation (nask wal mansukh), we need to understand one focal point, which is that Allah Almighty's knowledge covers everything.<<

It only because Allah's knowledge covers everything that His abrogating His own revelation makes Allah look ridiculous. The strength Allah has given His believers is a case in point:

008.065 YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

008.066 YUSUFALI: For the present, Allah hath lightened your (task), for He knoweth that there is a weak spot in you: But (even so), if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of Allah: for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.

What was the point of revealing 8:65 if Allah knew that the task of fighting an enemy 10 times larger is futile even though booty and paradise greatly strengthened Muslims, and reduces believers' strength by a factor of five in the next verse ?

>>It is not subject to change because it is not limited by the boundaries of time. This means that when Allah Almighty reveals something in the Qur'an and later on gives a fresh command that adjusts the old one or cancels it, He surely knows already that He is going to reveal something to adjust the old command or cancel it. In other words, the new command is not new to Him; it is new to us because we have no access to His knowledge and we are bound by time limitations.<<

What you say cannot apply to a book which claims to be valid for all time. The underlined sentence means that the Koran was meant only for the Arabs who lived during the lifetime of the prophet. If commands had to be 'adjusted' to suit the context of the time how can they be timeless?

>>In the light of this, we can understand that Allah Almighty has already had knowledge that He is going to give a new command at a certain point in the life of people telling them to change their way of life or correct certain concepts in ways that suit the new stage.<<

This means Allah knew at the time He revealed a verse He would have to change it to suit changing circumstances and it indicates that the verses have significance only for times of the prophet. After the end of Allah's revelations the verses will have significance only if everything is frozen as they were at the time of the prophet's death.

>>Behind this, there is surely great divine wisdom, which sometimes we are aware of and sometimes we are not.<<

This is Mullah-speak. When the book that claims to be clear and easily understood becomes opaque you blame it on Allah's divine wisdom.

>>To illustrate this, let's think about a father whose five-year-old child asks him about the origin of life; where do males and females come from? At this point of the child's age, the most suitable answer will be something like "We come from Adam and Eve." But later on when this same child grows up, the simple answer will be abrogated by telling him about the mechanism of production and fertilization. This example gives a bit of an idea about how this process of abrogation works.<<

Taking this example to the development of human beings would mean that we as human beings stopped growing after Muhammad died.

>>As for Allah, His infinite knowledge neither has a start nor an end.<<

Allah in his infinite knowledge failed to put an end to end slavery. Muslims enjoyed taking and keeping slaves right into the twentieth century until kaffirs forced Muslims to abrogate Allah's verses that allow slavery.

>> Yet, here we need to ask, if that is what abrogation is like, what is the benefit or the wisdom of doing that?

In fact, scholars have counted a number of wisdoms behind abrogation. First, abrogation can happen as a way of gradual legislation that aims at making things easy for people.<<

Gradual legislation ended drinking of alcohol. Allah did not legislate to end slavery. Allah does not consider slavery to be a crime whereas alcohol and usury are. What is Allah's wisdom worth, Shaji?

>>Sometimes, Allah Almighty commands that a certain strict thing should be bserved and then alleviates it to make the life of people easier.<<

Allah took no measures to make the lives of slaves, especially slave-girls kept as concubines, easy. He said treat them well and release some as expiation for your sins and left it at that. There is nothing about slave keeping being abhorrent as He claimed alcohol and usury to be.

>>An example of this is when Allah Almighty commanded that anyone who wants to speak to the Prophet (peace be upon him) should offer something in charity. Later on, Allah (Glory be to Him) removed this requirement and just encouraged people to establish prayer and do good deeds.<<

Where was the need to remove this requirement as the prophet would die anyway and this verse would become redundant? This verse and the one abrogating it (which is this abrogating verse?) again shows that the Koran was specific to Muhammad's time and is superfluous in today's world.

>>But one may ask, "What is the point of this?" The answer is, there are many wisdoms behind it, one of which is to make people aware of the fact that Allah is merciful to them and that He looks after them and cares for their well-being.<<

Is it wisdom to tell people that they need not give charity? I thought charity was one of the pillars of Islam. My reading of this verse is the charity was actually meant for the prophet after he had squandered away Khadija's wealth. But after he became rich on the twenty percent he skimmed off all booty he had no need for charity and he had Allah give him a verse relieving his followers of this burden of maintaining him and his several wives and concubines.

>>Another wisdom is to refine the souls of people and train them on how to observe to higher levels of morality.<<

How does asking people not to give charity (even to a penurious prophet) lift them to higher levels of morality?

>>For instance, if your child is not studying hard and spending much time playing, you can discipline him saying, "You are not allowed to play anymore for the coming month." Later on, you may see that he has complied with the command and became very good in his studies, so what you do is to alleviate the restrictions and allow him to play for a certain number of hours. In this way, you create a balance in his life. In this exact way, Allah Almighty trains w

This is a childish example (why do Muslims come up with such fatuous examples?) This again tells us that the Koran was meant for the Arabs who lived in jahiliya. We have all grown up since the seventh century and Allah's verses (and indeed the Koran) stand abrogated by Time. Only Muslims who still live in the seventh century see any wisdom in Allah's verses.

>>Sometimes, abrogation comes to establish a certain ruling that needs to be established gradually because it is difficult for people to apply it completely. Suppose that you want a drug addict to give up drugs, it would be unpractical to ask him to give up right away. The most practical way will be to train him how to give up bit by bit. The same is applied in the Qur'an when Allah Almighty commanded the believing community to give up wine: He did not do that at one shot. Rather, Allah Almighty first spoke about wine and that it may be beneficial for some people (i.e. traders) but it has some greater harm. Later on, a new instruction came prohibiting any drunken man to engage in prayer and, in fact, that was stage two. Then, when the community was fully prepared to receive a final decision and were able to apply the law, Allah Almighty told them to avoid drinking wine completely and never approach it.<<

Great excuse for Allah's creative powers gone wrong. He creat people away from wine. But ed wine. Why did He. Or why did he make wine that would make people go crazy?

Allah thought up stage wise ways of weaning people away from wine. But His imagination seems to have failed when it came to the Muslims' addiction to slaves. Which is why slave-keeping continued until the twentieth century in the Prophet's homeland of Saudi Arabia.

>>I hope you got the idea of abrogation from the above explanation. There are many things more to be explained in this aspect but let me leave it for now and will present you as per your response, Insha Allah <<

I will welcome more explanations of Allah abrogating His own words. But so far you have only succeeded in making Allah look extremely silly.

>>Secondly, Islam is not the religion of Arabs. It is your misconception. See what Qur'an says in 3:84 - Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."<<

This verse tells us that Allah's religion is meant only for the Semitic people as He has not named any prophet He sent to China or India.

>>Then why Qur'an and Prophet (peace be upon him) was required….??. Read Qur'aan 2:213 – "Mankind were one community, and ALLAH sent prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth, that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed. And only those unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it, after clear proofs had come unto them, through hatred one of another. And ALLAH by His Will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. ALLAH guideth whom He will unto a straight path".<<

Do you see any wisdom in these verses? What I see is an Allah who does not know whether He is coming or going. Read the underlined sentences. Allah at first says He revealed the scripture to judge us about that which we differed. He later says that by His will He guided those who believe (Muslims) to the truth. This means Allah chooses to guide some to the truth and some He leaves straying. Allah is a capricious deity who makes no sense.

>>It is for us mankind require guidance to lead life which suits with nature. Allah's duty is to reveal the guidance (Qur'an) and to send Prophets for humankind to follow.<<

You are challenging many verses of the Koran which say Allah chooses to guide who He will. Allah claims his duty is to guide only those who take His fancy (Jews and later Muslims). Allah has not sent any prophet after Muhammad. The world has passed through more dire states than during the prophet's time. Why does He not abrogate the verse making Muhammad the seal of prophets and let us have the pleasure of more messengers to guide us?

>>I am not working against Allah's plan. Qur'an has the answer for this query. It says in 16:125 – "Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance." Hope you got why I sit with you and it depends on my convenience.<<

The Koran also says be hard on the unbelievers and fight them until they submit:

009.073 YUSUFALI: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

009.029 YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

You should know that 16:125 was revealed in Mecca when he had not acquired armed might. As soon as he gathered a group of armed believers Allah's tone changes and He calls for violence against unbelievers. 9:29 and 9:73 were revealed in Madina.

>>So what I am doing is, as per instruction of Allah through HIS divine guidance, which is Qur'an.<<

The Koran instructs you thus:

009.111 YUSUFALI: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Does this iron-clad contract that Allah signed with believers attract you, Shaji?

>>How adoring city of Makkah (or) kissing black stone (or) doing prostration on the earth's surface (or) ink and paper used to present Qur'an turned to worshipping that…..??. One can only say, it is a sense of respect shown to it. If I respect somebody, does that mean I am praying to him….??<<

That is exactly what idol-worshippers are doing, showing respect to their creator by worshipping his symbols and making offerings. Muslims are no different. They pray facing Mecca, run between Safa and Marwa which Allah claims to be His symbols and offer slaughtered animals as offerings.

>>At the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the 'adhaan' or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?<<

What has stopped people from doing the same now? You want to try the same trick of Bilal now and tell the people who are about to cut you into a million pieces that Muhammad himself allowed it.

Muslims venerate the black stone just as any idol-worshipper does. Come off your high horse, Muslims are also idol worshippers. Allah allows it in verse 2:158.

>>I can give you references from Hindu scriptures, instructing to worship unseen God.

1) "There is no image of Him" YajurVed 32:3

2) "He is bodyless and pure" Yajurved 40:8

5) "O friends, do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One." Rigveda Book 8:1:1

I hope you will learn about Islam. If Allah wishes you will find the truth.<<

By quoting all that stuff from the Vedas you are telling us the truth that Hinduism is no different from Islam. Why then as an Indian don't you go back to your roots?

>>May Allah helps us to learn and follow the truth (Amen).<<

The TRUTH, my dear Shaji, is that whether there is one god, many gods or no god our lives are ours to live and fashion the way we want. Those who thus rise above the cruel injunctions and irrationality inherent in almost all religions are at peace with themselves and with their fellow beings.

Regards

Plato

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