To Tariq, Re: "Islam the religion of peace does not allow this"

Submitted by William (United States), Mar 18, 2006 at 05:56

>"This is what Muslim terrorism in general is about..."
>As there is no such thing as muslim terrorism,this sentence and the whole para after is wrong.

Tariq, I wish it were so simple. You repeat over and over, "Islam means peace". Boom. There go a couple more civilians. "There is no such thing as muslim terrorism." Bang. Another muslim faction takes out another couple dozen people shopping for vegetables or walking to work. And then some secretive group with suggestive names like "the swords of revenge" or the "wrath of allah" or "mohammed's killers" or whatever claims responsibility. Somehow, this whole idea that Islam is just about peace and love and harmony is strikes me as a bit problematic. Unless you mean the type of "peace" found in cemetaries and morgues. Admittedly, rather "peaceful" places.

We call what you are doing "playing with semantics". It makes you proud of your father's religion, the one that was drilled into your head all through childhood, to claim that really there are no muslim terrorists and that Islam is really about peace. It makes you ashamed to admit that your fellow muslims are turning in greater and greater numbers dream only of murder and death and turn to murderous rampages, like this student at UNC. I'd be ashamed too. So what do you do? You play with semantics. "That's not real Islam." Sorry, that doesn't prevent all those people, like this student, from smiling and saying they "slaughter" in the name of Allah. Your approach, to dismiss the deep problems of Islam by saying "Oh, well, that's not real Islam" is the approach of a coward who cannot stand self-criticism and who cannot bear to question the traditions of his daddy and mama. Self-criticism is one of the West's greatest talents.

>"But your response, Tariq, illustrates a second talnet: the ability to draw absolutely absurd >arguments meant to demonstrate how, in the end, Islam is really peaceful and good and all >those Westerners are a bunch of terrorist barbarian hypocrites. Sir, I do not wish to belittle >you or your beliefs. But understand, you are only fooling yourself and your fellow >brainwashed believers with your arguments"
>
>1.2 b muslim on this planet have more than a billion talents combined together. Islam IS >peaceful.

Not according to Osama bin Laden, Moqtada Al Sadr, this UNC student, Zarqawi, etc., etc., etc. No one cares whether you think Islam is peaceful or not. It is what it is. Somehow, pretty much everyone else in the world seems to be getting on just fine without ball bearing laden suicide vests. Hindus. Buddhists. Jews. Christians. Sikhs. Chinese. Japanese. French. But not the Muslims. Saying Islam is peaceful seems, well, like someone is ashamed to face reality.

>"Sir, I do not wish to belittle you or your beliefs"
>a lone human cant belittle the religion sent by god

Then why are people calling for these Danish cartoonists to be "beheaded"? If these millions and millions of followers of the religion of peace didn't think the cartoons had severely threatened and belittled their beliefs, why did they suddenly call for death, torture, execution, of the simple artists who drew them?

>"I suggest for that, for the good of all, you think hard before drawing ridiculous parallels >meant to prove Western hypocrisy or that really, Muslims are just peaceful good neighbors >like everyone else. If you and about a billion other people like you don't very quickly become >a lot more open and clear minded on such issues, then we are in for some bloody times >indeed. "
>I am open minded. its your turn

Well, Tariq, I guess you got me with that one!

>Here you are, saying, "Islam is peace" and then basically saying, "His revenge is really no >different than Americans taking out the Taliban.""

>Dont put words into my mouth. i said "Dont non-muslims kill? Iraq war, afghanistan, >palestine..." to show that its not just muslims who kill. criminals are present everywhere, in >every society. its just that wen a muslim does something UNISLAMIC, the whole western >world blames Islam and the rest of the 1.2 billion followers. But when a christian murders 6 >million jews in the name of cristianity... nothing. double standards. hypocrisy.

Am I putting words in your mouth? Not at all. In fact, your response itself corroborates my interpretation of your statements. You point to "Iraq war, etc." to "show its not just muslims who kill. criminals are present everywhere". My point is that not all "killing" is the same and you just muddle everything together into an ugly mess of moral equivalence. You call Islam the religion of peace, yet your muddled perspective will lead to never ending killing, revenge, violence. US soldiers kill guys shooting at them, scurying to plant bombs to kill either them or innocent civilians. They hunt down and kill the kinds of people who blew up the mosque of the golden dome. Terrorists like this UNC student just go out and kill people going about their business on a sunny day. Very few Iraqis/Afghans, etc. die because an American soldier just says, "Hey, let's go kill someone today." Muslim terrorists -- and there are many, many of them -- live only to murder. And they have legions of quiet sympathizers among your fellow followers of the religion of peace. Cannot the relgion of peace distinguish between killing some guy who's planting a bomb to stir civil war and killing unsuspecting people on their way to work at the corner grocery or in the post office? Does not one seem to be a necessary evil and the other senseless depravity? If the religion of peace cannot make this distinction, it's just barbaric.

>"As I said above, this student's story is one of a Muslim snake lying in wait for years to use a >truck to crush to death as many university students enjoying a nice day as he possibly can."
>
>the story of hitler is that of a christian killing SIX MILLION jews

Laughable. Laughable, sir. I sure hope you do not believe your own analogies here. You again try to save yourself the trouble of criticizing the religion of peace, the tradition of your mommy and daddy, by claiming the west has double standards. "When a muslim kills, they say 'muslim killer', when a christian kills, they say 'insane killer'". Nonsense! The central motif of Hitler's message was superiority of the Aryan (white) race and of Germans in particular. Westerners never shy away from this. He identified himself as a Nazi, an Aryan, a German. That's what the masses of his followers identified themselves as. Not Christian. He was a white supremicist mass murderer. I'm white, and I identify him as such. I feel some shame for my race, but I do not run from that fact by just saying he was insane and "not a real white", like you say these terrorists are not "real muslims". Once again, the west is very good at self-criticism.

Oh, and if you listen to many, perhaps most, muslims in the world, the holocaust was really a myth or a Zionist conspiracy. Once again demonstrating Muslims' unparalleled talent of trying to pass off truly ridiculous analogies on the rest of mankind, Ahmadinejad (Iranian president) wants to "inspect" the concentration camps in Poland is response to western demands to "inspect" Iran's nuclear sites.

>"Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Palestinian territories are a completely, absolutely different >species of animal"
>What a way to defend american aggression!!!

Quite effective, I think.

>America invaded Afghanistan because they supported Bin Laden and other terrorists."
>wheres the proof? i dont believe in confessions of a person trained and supported and armed >by USA. especially wen he very conveniently accepts 911 wen the americans can aome up >with no evidence, leading to attack in afghanistan, presence in Central Asia which lead to >access to the ATLEAST 700 billion cubic meters of gas in tajikistan

Okay, so you're also a paranoid conspiracy theorist. I could dimantle this illusion as well, but this response is getting long. Maybe I'll post something else on this after my final exams are over.

>"They shoot not to kill indiscriminantly, but to take out the guys pointing guns at us or planting >bombs or executing school teachers who deign to allow little girls in their classrooms. "
>
>I dont care HOW they do it. I care WHY they do it.

What? It actually seems to be precisely the reverse. To you, a death is a death is a death. Or, I should say, the only distinction you make is between muslim and non-muslim blood. The blood of a muslim insurgent murderer rapist is worth more than the blood of an infidel charity worker, right?

>"I actually suspect that Americans are killing very, very few Iraqis at this point."
>HA HAHA

Americans are not killing, nor are they being killed in great numbers in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else. Case in point. A few days ago, Americans dropped a bomb on a house holding some insurgents and some innocent civilians were (unintentionally) killed. There was _a lot_ of press about it. I saw two or three stories on it in the NY Times, CNN, etc. When innocent civilians are killed in Iraq, it certainly makes the news in the US. And as someone who watches the press compulsively, I assure you it's pretty rare.

>"And the ones they kill, yeah, they're the ones who just launched a mortar shell or planted a >bomb."
>like the pregnant women killed in the radio station?

Don't know what you're talking about. But before you jump on this and claim I'm just ignorant, ask yourself, in the spirit of rational inquiry, does what you're saying or thinking really detract from my argument or are you just comforting yourself in your simple view that Islam means peace and America and those pesky Jews are really to blame for everything?

>"We do not wish to kill civilians."
>Then u are a FAILURE

We are always striving to get better. And we do. Pretty much everything positive around you came from western ambition to improve the lot of mankind. I hope you appreciate that. No, I didn't think so. In the next war, we will be even more precise and the number of unintended deaths will be even lower.

>" We just don't. We want the Middle east to be just like Japan or Germany after WWII."
>by attacking and killing muslims? the best way to make us like japan would be to CHANGE >YOUR FOREIGN POLICIES AMD MAKE IT FAIR TO MUSLIMS. dont abuse your super >power status

Utter hogwash. Again, it is comforting to be able to blame your problems on America. Why are the Chinese doing so well economically? And how about those hated Indians (Hindus)? Why is there peace throughout the world except in and around muslim populations (and various places in Africa)? We just don't care whether you worship Allah or worms or a stone or whatever. Islam has deep, deep identity issues that are causing millions of people to cry jihad and devote their lives to death out of all proportion to any injustice they may have felt. Take the Chinese. Or the Hindus. Or those vile Jews as an example. Have these great peoples not felt injustice of some sort or another? Believe me, each of them harbors their own anger and frustration. The difference is that these peoples have realized that to make the world a better place for themselves and others, they should set differences aside and work toward economic, political, and cultural liberalization. Their grievances will be addressed, but they do not focus maniacally on them. And perhaps it's even a good thing if, after a few decades, somebody forgets that his great great uncle was killed by a member of some other tribe. Muslims, on the other hand, have committed themselves to... vengence. Contrast your fellow followers of the religion of peace with Chinese, Hindus, Jews, etc.

>"What would be even closer is if some random American tourist ran over a bunch of people >in a park in Tehran and then said Jesus made 'em do it"
>If this ever happens, ppl will say that that soldeir ws not christian. but wen a muslim does >UNISLAMIC acts he is a muslim, and muslims are terrorists. hypocrites

You have no idea how wrong you are. Do you realize how many Americans despise the Christians among them and see them as a threat to freedom? Many American Jews, in particular, fear the Christian right, and many are very politically vocal and active. If some guy yelled out "Jesus is great!" before killing some innocent people (or anyone else, for that matter), the NY Times, CNN, etc. etc. would love to report the headline "Man Murders in Name of Jesus". They'd probably call him "the Jesus killer". Sorry, it doesn't happen. Occasionally, there is a bizaare cult based on Christianity that does something really weird, like committing mass suicide. For example, David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. The press never says they aren't Christian. They just say the name of their sect or their church, literally how these people identified themselves. Seems like the reasonable thing to do, right?

Stop ducking from self-criticism.

>"but I beg you to rethink the consequences of intentionally trying to see every act of Islamic >terrorism as on par with US military"
>I know. and they have showed this by practically doing it, by bullying, but intimidating, and by >ALWAYS having foreign policies which are unfair to muslims and F. policies which show the >true face of christians

Everyone gather round for a pity party for those Muslims who are treated so "unfairly" by the west.

I imagine you're talking about US support for Israel. History is messy. Wars have happened. Muslims have killed. Christians have killed. Not many Jews have killed, as it turns out. But then there aren't too many of them around. What do you expect the US to do, tell Israel to pack up their belongings and move back to Germany, Russia, etc? My good American upbringing has taught me there are some battles worth fighting and some worth saying we'd all be better off if we just called that one a loss and moved on. I get the impression that muslims are just hell-bent on looking for a fight whereever they can find one. Like they're trying to avoid looking at themselves and finding fault in the ridiculously outmoded traditions that mommy and daddy taught them.

>"Think about that for a second. Muslims like yourself are fond of saying the US "destroyed" >Afghanistan and Iraq."
>and u kill muslims.

We kill the guys planting bombs and killing schoolteachers. Our soldiers don't ask their religion before pulling the trigger.

>"No, we didn't"
>WHAT?!!!!!!. i'll believe u when u do the same to non-muslim countries and to yourself what u >are doing to muslims

We firebombed Tokyo in WWII and killed 100,000 Japanese civilians in one night. That was with antique weapons. America killed relatively few civilians in taking over Afghanistan and Iraq and quickly repaired any infrastructure that was destroyed. We could make Iraq uninhabitable, if we wanted. Try not to exaggerate the "injustices" the west has visited upon muslims. Neither muslims nor westerners want the west to make your foolish exaggerations come true.

>"Reflect on that a moment, then understand just what remarkable restraint and precision the >United States has employed in taking down two regimes."
>When the iraq war started for no reason, i read an article in newsweek(yeah the amrican >supporting mag) tht a bunker buster bomb was dropped in an iraqi radio station. killing a >pregnant women and a small hand was sticking out of her stomach. precision?! bunker >busters are to be used against the taliban hypocrites in afghan mountains, not in decaying >buildings

Terrible image, isn't it? And you think we Americans are manipulated by the "Jewish media"? You hear of one horrific event and then you start muddling all forms of killing together, as I argued (very effectively) above. Sounds like you hear of one terrible incident and lose your senses. Hitler would've loved more followers like you.

US military planners took out a radio station. That's common in wartime. It prevents leaders from communicating with their subjects. On behalf of the United States of America, I humbly apologize that our engineers have not (YET) perfected a weapon that will destroy only the radio transmitting capability and spare any pregnant woman who happens to be next to that equipment. But since you said you care about "why" this woman was killed and not "how", I assume you realize that the US military went to extraordinary lengths to minimize casualties on both sides. War ain't pretty. But it's a noble and worthy goal to minimize injury on all sides as much as possible.

>"Afghans and Iraqis surely have died,..."
>and for what? why?

911. To claim there isn't a problem with terrorism among muslims, even "false" muslims, is just idiocy. America isn't powerful enough just to go in and pick out those "fake" muslims and kill them. And to not go in and do something about the cult of death among your coreligionists would be idiocy on our part. What are we going to do, just sit by and what your coreligionists boil over into a global movement of violent jihad against the west?

>"... but very rarely because an American soldier gratuitously killed them"
>watch al jazeera.
>the tally would open your eyes

I read the Al Jazeera website probably twenty times a day. When's the last time you saw a story about an American soldier gratuitously killing anyone?

>"And when such cases occur, we all hope the perpetrators go to prison."
>Send bush, and all those who voted for him to prison

I voted for him.

>"but we Americans see the distinction."
>Hitler was a christian. dont u the distinction in ur blaming of religions? Dont you see the >distinction in your treatment of muslim states.

Well, Tariq, the distinction I'm making is between gratuitous killing of innocents (muslims) and targeted killing in order to have better control over those societies that are breeding our enemies (US military). And this "better control" amounts to liberalization and greater individual freedom. Pretty good reasons to kill, I think.

Your distinction is between the way the "Jewish" western media portrays muslim and christian criminals and killers. I think I ridiculed this nonsense to a sufficient level above.

>ANSWER MY QUESTIONS
>Should IRAN be allowed to have nuclear weapons(or other WMDs)?
>Should USA be allowed to have nuclear weapons(or other WMDs)?!!!

Answers: No. Yes.

If Iran gets a nuke and either attacks Israel or the US, you're going to either applaud them or say, "They're not real muslims". A lot of good that'll do, sir. I live in the real world. Ahmadinejad is a nut. Iranians are focused on their cult of revolutionary islam. How many followers of the religion of peace have chanted "Death to America", "Death to Israel", etc. Pretty focused on "death", aren't they? Do you not believe there's a significant chance Iran will somehow "lose" a nuclear weapon to some terrorist group that detonates it somewhere in the west? Do you not believe that if that happened, followers of the religion of peace wouldn't be openly rejoicing? To not protect ourselves from this obvious threat would be insanity.

The US has no desire to destroy any people in the world. Muslims picked this fight. Believe me when I say that up until 911, most Americans barely knew that Islam existed and most of those that did just didn't care. On the other hand, muslims have been obsessed with blaming their decrepit cultures and societies on the west for decades now.

Again, my advice: learn a bit of the great western talent of self-criticism.

>"While we prosecute the war thinking, "How do we minimize the number of innocent >casualties"
>Y attack in the first place? for tajik gas and iraqi oil?

Again, I will deal with your crazy conspiracy non-sense some other time, if I have the time and you're willing to be convinced.

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