to Sidda

Submitted by tariq (United Arab Emirates), Mar 21, 2006 at 12:29

Finally i can add one more person to my list of christians-who-were-not-hostile-to-me-but-instead-reasonable-from-the-start. Counting u makes a total of TWO! thats right. i have been reading replys from christians from the past 7 months. all except u and one more person replied back without being hostile and without writing all their misconceptions.(so i should be forgiven for thinking that most christians are hypoctites?)

"Tariq, you leave me almost speechless......almost."
u are being sarcastic, but still, thank you

"Look, I'm just going to bypass the religious debate for the time being and go to this point..."
ok

"Even if what you say is true..that the extremists are misinterpreting the texts in the Qu'ran and Hadiths, what are you going to do about it?"
i come here and educate ppl about Islam. suppose a muslim comes here, knowing that Islam is peaceful, but he reads many comments from chrisitians voicing their misconceptions about islam. and quoting Ayats out of context. that loyal muslim may think tht it is NECESSARY for him to kill non-muslims, and this may lead to this so called 'sudden jihad syndrome'.
but i come here to prove that islam is peaceful. also read my comments to italian:

"The problem is that many muslims dont know Islam. and instead of arguing (with) those who do, u should learn from us, and argue with the extremists and teach them the real Islam. this way those extremists will feel ashamed as they have to learn Islam from non-muslims and hopefully practice the true and peaceful Islam."

Sidda, Suppose u meet a muslim who was just told by a hostile chrisitian that verse 5 of chapter 9 in the quran says:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

and suppose that u are an understanding christian, not hostile, suppose u dont just blame Islam but learn and remove your misconceptions (which have been) spread by liars like craig winn.
u would tell him:
"dear muslim, this verse has been quoted out of context. this verse was revealed during a war. a treaty between the muslims and pagans was signed in which they agreed that there would be no fighting for 4 months. so verse 4 says:

"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous. "

in other words muslims are commanded not to break the treaty, but wen the four months are passed, resume the war, and even then and 'lie in wait for them'. dont attack them because Quran says in chpt.2 verse 190:

"Fight in the cause of God THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. "

and tell him that the trangression includes:
-attacking first
running after the fleeing enemy, and MANY other things.(These are the things not allowed to muslims in war)

and tell him that just after verse 9:5, V 9:6 says:
"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. "

In other words, these pagans did not know Islam, but wen they ask for asylum, give it to them so that they can learn Islam.

And in this way u can avoid 'Sudden Jihad Syndrome'.
I know its not ur responsibility but still u can help.

one of the most misunderstood topic is jihad. it means to strive, not holy war. whenever i hear any1 saying the word jihad as holy war, i give that person a whole lecture on jihad. thats the best and the most i can do.

"Let's just say, for the sake of the discussion, what you say is true. The fact remains that there are legions of Muslims all over the world, schooled by these Wahabbi funded Imams in their madrassas and mosques."
wot is wahabbi? i dont know wot it is cuz i dont care about, wahabbi, habafi, bohri etc.
There are hundreds of thousands of mosques in the word. very few of them teach misconceptions about islam. I read in a newspaper that some saudis fund these terrorists posing as mosques because they fear that if they dont fund them, they will be attacked. it not that terrorists hiding in mosques and islamic schools are SUPPORTED by muslims, some get the funds as a ransom, many recieve money without us KNOWING where its going.

" And they are interpreting the Qu'ran and hadiths in a way to justify the killing and subjugation of infidels."
and these interpretations are being spread by christians.

"They are preaching the return of the caliphate"
personally if i were to choose where the caliph should be from, i would choose malaysia.

"It doesn't matter what us "infidels" think these texts mean in the final analysis. Say I walk away from this conversation and I say to myself, "you know Tariq is probably right--these texts are just misinterpreted and these fire-breathing imams are just emphasizing the most violent ones..."
what do u mean by most violent ones?

"to justify their actions and brainwash these children and illiterate people that they have control over." Let's say I think that. What does it change?"
it woudnt change much if u would understand islam, but a lot would be changed if chrisitans as a WHOLE would understand. once u do, you'll be able to think WHY do these imams spread the misconceptions(but then u'll be thinking about politics)

"They are still doing it. It's not just a "small minority of extremists." There are MILLIONS of these people."
I'll copy paste part of an article writen by a CHRISTIAN:
" In fact, less than 5 % of Muslims could be classified as fundamentalist in outlook, and of that 5 %, less than 0.01 % have shown any tendency toward enacting terrorism or "religious violence." It is thus "the height of illiberalism" to define as terrorists over 1.3 billion Muslims who have nothing to do with "religious violence" because of the misdeeds of a fringe minority of 0.005 %. At most, one in every 200,000 Muslims can be accused of terrorism. That is to say there are a maximum of about 65,000 terrorists worldwide—roughly the same figure as the number of murderers on the loose in the U.S. alone, with over 20,000 homicides a year and a population of only 300 million."
(Vincenzo Oliveti, The Myth of "The Myth of Moderate Islam" Islamica Magazine)

"Now, there might be a minority who are actually willing (and qualified) to go out and carry out the actual attacks, but millions who sympathize with them, support them, and help them."
Who are these sympathizeers? surely not me and the rest of the muslims who understand Islam.

"Don't you understand that it isn't us who you need to convince, but the ones who are tarnishing your religion?"
Chrisitans are the best at tarnishing islam. dont know about u but look at other chrisitians comments.

"I'll tell you, as a Christian, iI would be outraged if a group like the KKK started getting funded by all the oil in Texas and co-opted Christianity and started spreading their hateful, supremacist ideology all around the world."
and i am outraged that osama and saddam...

"If they managed to convince other Christians that it was our duty to convert, subjugate, or kill all those who weren't Christian, that non-Christians were inferior to us and should be treated as second-class citizens, the Pope and other Christian leaders would put the kibash to it real quick and so would all other Christians."
Not if the media was controlled by muslims who wanted to spread this misconceptions

"I wouldn't try to convince the non-Christians the KKK was trying to kill that this wasn't what Christianity was all about. Well I might spend some time on it, but my emphasis would be in smacking down the ones who "hijacked" my religion"
theses hijackers are so few that i have never met one. in ur previous comment u told me to go theses munafiqs website. i dont know any. so plz give one.

"Go after the ones who are tarnishing the name of Islam and causing people to regard it with fear and disdain."
lol bush is doing the job.

"I don't like Sharia Law, especially in its treatment of women"
u dont know the SHARIA law. Islam treats women better than any other religion. its the interpretation of muslims that u dont like(believe it or not, abaya was not introduced, nor was made compulsory by islam, on women. and the taliban would shoot any women caught without it)

"in Afghanistan right now there is a Christian man who converted from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago and he might now get the death penalty. What other religion puts people to death who leave their religion? No other! Some religions have excommunication or shunning, but nobody loses THEIR LIFE! How can you defend such a thing? Jesus said to judge not, lest you be judged. That doesn't mean you can never tell someone what they are doing is wrong; it means that God will be the final judge of that person's soul. But, in Islam they sentence a person to death for leaving Islam! "

How did u start ur comment? "Tariq, you leave me almost speechless......almost."

i think now u can erase the 'almost', cuz u r going to learn something which even muslims dont know. so be prepared(wear ur seatbelt):


APOSTASY IN ISLAM: A COMMENTARY BY A "FORMER" APOSTATE

A couple of weeks ago during question-answer session in our center, a member inquired about the punishment for apostasy in Islam. It is the prevalent belief among some Muslims (especially the isolated ones) that according to Shari'a, the apostate must be put to death.

I was once an apostate and openly declared I did not believe in Islam and rejected even the existence of God. Thank God! I was then living in a country where people did not execute apostates. I thank God for giving me a chance to repent and return to the fold of Islam. I, being an apostate once, became free from the cultural and ethnic Islam to study true Islam with an open mind. "Islamic scholars" and Imams do not anymore control my mind and beliefs unless their decrees (fatwas) are (1) in conformity with the Quran, (2) the hadith that they quote do not contradict the Quran.

I believe that many Muslims are reluctant to speak up because many "Islamic" cultures today encourage docility and teach to unquestioningly accept the decisions of "qualified" scholars. This is a new phenomenon; in the time of Muhammad (pbuh), ideas were only supported after they had been proven to be in harmony with the Quran. Scholars could not just pull rank, as they were expected to be able to argue their cases. In fact, in a famous incident of Islamic history, a humble woman of Medina publicly corrected the Caliph. One day, Hazrat Umar was announcing a change in the rule mahr, when the woman in the crowd suddenly stopped him in his track by loudly quoting a verse of the Quran which contradicted his proposal. He had to relent, saying, "The women of Medina know the Quran better than Umar." So, it is time for Muslims to question the imams and scholars if they deviate from the Quran and hadith that do not contradict the Quran. We must not only be satisfied by the answer of the scholars, but we must verify the source of their references. Remember, if Hazrath Umar can make a mistake, ordinary scholars and ordinary people like us also can make greater mistakes.

The Quran and the sayings of the Prophet require Muslims to think critically. Pagans are repeatedly berated for not questioning, for not using reason, even being compared to dumb animals on several occasions!

"When it is said unto them: 'Follow that which Allah has revealed:' they say: 'Nay! We shall follow the ways of our fathers.' What! Even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?....Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense." (2:170-171)

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book....." (3:7)

"Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found herein much incongruity." (4:83)

So, the principle established here is that (1) Muslims are required to think critically and not blindly accept the authority of their scholars, and (2) that the clear message of the Quran is to be preferred to any isolated law interpretation which contradicts the Quran's clear spirit.

The Quran teaches that human beings are individually responsible. So, I believe that Allah would not forgive my sins on the Day of Judgment even if my sins were the result of following the advice of a certain Imam. I would not be able to hide behind any Imam or behind his fatwa even if coming from the most respected and revered Imam of any time. Therefore, views expressed here are my opinions based on the references given. I do not claim to be a scholar, but there are sometimes cases where the violation of the Quran is so self-evident that all Muslims can see them.

I believe that inhuman law of apostasy has nothing to do with Islam of the Prophet (s) and it is an interpolation into Islam by fanatics among us and the selfish rulers. There are many reasons for me to believe that execution for apostasy is a manufactured law rather than divine law.

The Prophet spent his entire life fighting in defence of fundamental human rights that everybody should be free to choose his religion; no one must be physically forced to change religion. The Prophet struggled with the Meccan establishment to have the freedom to invite non-believers to Islam. This was consistent with the practices of all other Prophets.

The Quran states:

"...There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is here forth distinct from error..." (2:256)

In the light of the above verse, a person has to be insane to belief that Islam prescribes execution for apostasy.

The Quran further states:

"Say (Muhammad it is) truth from Lord of all. Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, Let him disbelieve." (18:29)

In no uncertain terms, Allah commands Prophet to allow people to believe and disbelieve. If the Shari'a recommends to kill an apostate, this law cannot be Islamic because it contradicts the above two verses.

The Quran further states:

"And so, O Prophet, exhort them, thy task is ONLY to exhort; thou canst NOT compel them to believe." (88:21-22)

"Thy duty is to make the message reach them; it is OUR PART to call them to account." (13:40)

"Call thou (all mankind) unto thy Sustainer's path with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in MOST KINDLY MANNER..." (16:125)

While the Quran commands the Prophet not to compel people to believe in Islam and invite people with the most kind manner and words, fanatics among us threaten people with death mercilessly to keep them in the Muslim Ummah as hypocrites as if the dishonest hypocrites are better than honest apostates. It is a most heinous crime against Islam and the Prophet (s) to manufacture an inhuman law of execution of apostate. If the Quranic verses tell the Prophet not to compel people to believe in Islam (88:22) and the responsibility to call disbelievers to account rests with God only (1:40), the law of execution of apostates is of human origin.

Initial reluctance of the people of Arabia to accept Islam disturbed Prophet. Then the following verse was revealed:

"And had your Lord willed, whoever in the earth would have believed all together, will you then coerce people to become believers? (10:99)

According to the above verse, even God will not coerce people to become Muslims or remain as Muslim once a person accepts Islam. So, Muslims must condemn the law of apostasy and save innocent Muslims becoming intolerant and violent by the heinous indoctrination by fanatics among us because Allah says:

"Who can be more wicked than the one who invent a lie against God,..." (6:93)

So, religious belief is a personal matter. It is God alone --not the state or religious authorities--who know what is in the heart of the people. If the highest human authority, Prophet (s), cannot call anyone to account for belief or disbelief, no sane person can believe that religious scholars and the state have the authority to execute people for their personal belief.

The Quran states:

"A section of the People of the Book say: 'Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, Bur reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back." (3:72)

The People of the Book mentioned in the verse are Jews of the Medina. These Jews used a tactic to create doubt among the Muslims in the hope that some of them might thereby be beguiled into repudiating Islam. How could it be possible for Jews to have enacted this plan to entice Muslims to believe one day and reject next, if death was the penalty for apostasy? The tactic of the People of the Book mentioned in this verse also exposes the un-Islamic apostasy law of the fanatics among us.

Abdullah b.Ubayy b.Salul was the leader of the munafiqun (hypocrites). But The Prophet took no action against him. Prophet prayed for him and stayed at the grave until he was buried. Those fanatics among us must explain the reason for Prophet not executing the known hypocrites like Abdullah b.Ubayy. Ubbay lived until death plotting to destroy Islam and Prophet knew it. He was not executed for apostasy. This suggests that apostasy law is not a divine law but interpolation by fanatics among us.

Another verse states:

"Those who believe, then reject Faith, then believe (again) and again reject Faith, go on increasing in Unbelief--God will not forgive them nor guide them on the Way." (4:137)

An apostate cannot enjoy the repeated luxury of believing and disbelieving if punishment is death. A dead man has no further chance of again believing and disbelieving. Furthermore, if taken at face value, this verse indicates that God will only withdraw His guidance after repeated rejections. It does not tell The Prophet to kill these apostate. So, what right do these religious authorities and Imams have to deprive a person of access to that divine guidance after the first?

The Quran states:

"How shall God guide those who reject faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But God guides not a people unjust. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of the God, of His Angels, and of all mankind;--In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be their lot;--except for those that repent (even) after that, make amends; For verily God is oft-forgiving, most merciful." (3:86-89)

It is obvious from the these verses that no punishment is to be inflicted by one man or another for apostasy. By no stretch of the imagination can the phrase, "curse of Allah," be interpreted to be a license to murder anyone who he considers to be an apostate. If any such commandment was prescribed it would have been clearly defined as all other punishments are in the Holy Quran.

The fact is that the Quran even mentions that apostates can be forgiven if they amend and repent. How could they repent if apostates are killed? By forced repentance? Then, does not Quran state that there is no compulsion in religion? The one verse that states that there is no compulsion in religion should be enough for a fair minded person to realize that Islam does not teach death to apostates.

Finally, can any one hadith suggesting to kill the apostate invalidate all the Qur'anic verses quoted earlier? We, Muslims, blame the West for anti-Muslim reporting. What do you expect from the West if we provide the sticks to beat us up? So, Muslim brothers and sisters, stand up for justice and against injustice. Will you object the persecution of the new Muslim convert for his apostasy by his erstwhile co-religionists? If we believe that it is injustice to kill a new Muslim by non-Muslims for his apostasy from his former faith, you must give the same just treatment to Muslims who become Christians, Jews and Atheists. Let Allah call to account those people who left Islam.

I, like many Muslims, am still bitter over smear jobs done on my religion by Western media over the Gulf war, and the Rushdie affair. So, the last thing that I want is to see Islam slandered all over again because of the barbaric and un-Islamic apostasy law. Ask yourselves: what kind of religion kills people for simple choice of faith, a change of heart? Not a religion of love and peace, not a religion worthy of respect! Perpetuation of the law to kill apostates can only increase or create doubts in the heart of the Muslims and potential Muslims, as people everywhere are already bombarded by negative images of Islam.

My message to those Muslims who, like me, yearn to see Islam grow in the West: Dawa will never be successful in the West as long as crazy nonsense of law of apostasy is unchallenged by Muslims. If Muhammed Ali, Cat Stevens, and Murad Hoffman were harassed by a reactionary Christian group, the Muslims will be up in arms! We must be consistent.

In closing, Islam is only vulnerable when Muslims abandon its clear teaching of reason, tolerance, and peace.

(http://www.faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed/apostates.html)


"I don't like Sharia at all and I do not want it imposed on me or my society"
if the sharia is imposed as it should be, u would want it to be imposed

"That's what Muslims do when they get the chance."
muslims do... so wot? we dont always follow islam

" Now, if you can have Islam without Sharia then that would be another story, but I don't think that is possible, is it?"
no.

"Hitler WAS NOT a practising Christian. He and the Nazis advocated going back to Nordic pagan roots, and they were also into the occult. They despised Christianity. There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus which could have been used to justify what the Nazis did, not even anything to "misinterpret." "
wait for my reply to william. i dont care wether hitler was a chrisitian or not. the thing is that hitler SAID he is a christian, just like osama claims to muslim. both were tyrants. but christians claim that hitlers actions are un-islamic, but REJECT muslims claims that bin laden taliban etc are not muslims.(.(so i should be forgiven for thinkin that most christians are hypoctites?)

"And I'm not sure how moderate a person can be when they won't even admit that al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11"
were they? there were reports of some of the hijackers being found alive. also i have cnn news on my computer, showing that the pentagon was probably not attacked by a plane. i know all this sounds crazy. but i dont know wot to believe.(al qaedia could be responsible, but who trained them?)

"Did you miss the video December 2001 where Osama admits that they masterminded the whole thing and laughs about it?"
very convenient wasnt it? no evidence, so on comes the confession

"He also laughs because, except for the pilots, the other hijackers didn't even know they were on a suicide mission."
osama kills innocent muslims, and christians call him muslim!!!!!

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