to william

Submitted by tariq (United Arab Emirates), Mar 28, 2006 at 09:48

"Tariq, I wish it were so simple"
it is that simple. only that u have to learn the real islam

"You repeat over and over, "Islam means peace"."
i never said said islam means peace. islam IS peaceful. stop putting words into my mouth.

"Boom. There go a couple more civilians."
u forgot to add, in iraq or palestine.

""There is no such thing as muslim terrorism." "
that is true. either u can be a muslim or a terrorist. th moment u become a terrorist, u are not a true muslim

"Bang. Another muslim faction takes out another couple dozen people shopping for vegetables or walking to work."
tell him that the Quran does not allow this.

"And then some secretive group with suggestive names like "the swords of revenge" or the "wrath of allah" or "mohammed's killers" or whatever claims responsibility. "
most of them are munafiq

", this whole idea that Islam is just about peace and love and harmony is strikes me as a bit problematic. "
Of course it does. when u don't even bother to learn the real islam and instead repeat the misconceptions of ppl like ali sina, everything relating to islam is problematic for u.

"We call what you are doing "playing with semantics". It makes you proud of your father's religion, the one that was drilled into your head all through childhood, "
when i first stumbled upon this site, i had little knowledge of islam. i could not reply to any hostile non-muslim. so this is what is did; i read both sides of the debate, and came to the conclusion that islam is the right religion and that it is peaceful

"to claim that really there are no muslim terrorists and that Islam is really about peace"
islam IS peaceful. muslim is one who submits to the will of god. how can a muslim be a terrorist wen the Quran doesnt allow terrorism?

"It makes you ashamed to admit that your fellow muslims are turning in greater and greater numbers dream only of murder and death and turn to murderous rampages, like this student at UNC. "

i dont consider them true muslims.

"I'd be ashamed too"
u should be:
""A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, 'Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.' Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, 'Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.' He [Jesus] answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.' The woman came and knelt before him. 'Lord, help me!' she said. He [Jesus] replied 'It is not right to take the children's [Jews] bread [blessings and miracles reserved for them] and toss it to the dogs.' 'Yes, Lord' she said, 'but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.' Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.' And her daughter was healed from that very hour." (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 15:22-28)"

here u see the racism that bible allows. this woman is PLEADING for her daughter to be cured. but jesus does not answer her "Jesus did not answer a word."
but then tells his disciples 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.' so he wont help her. racism.
but the woman pleads some more and the biblical jesus shows some more racism('It is NOT RIGHT to take the children's [Jews] bread [blessings and miracles reserved for them] and toss it to the DOGS)
so the woman says 'Yes, Lord. but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.'
so now she admits she is a dog(but not the jews) and the biblical jesus says that she has great faith(not to mention inferiority complex) and grants her a miracle


"So what do you do?"
i come here and remove your misunderstandings

"Sorry, that doesn't prevent all those people, like this student, from smiling and saying they "slaughter" in the name of Allah."
u want to prevent them from commit sins in the name of islam? heres wot u should do. learn the REAL islam, and start educating MUSLIMS who dont know.

"Your approach, to dismiss the deep problems of Islam by saying "Oh, well, that's not real Islam" "
but its not the real islam

"Self-criticism is one of the West's greatest talents."
then criticize your own religion


">"But your response, Tariq, illustrates a second talnet: the ability to draw absolutely absurd >arguments meant to demonstrate how, in the end, Islam is really peaceful and good and all >those Westerners are a bunch of terrorist barbarian hypocrites. Sir, I do not wish to belittle >you or your beliefs. But understand, you are only fooling yourself and your fellow >brainwashed believers with your arguments"
>
>1.2 b muslim on this planet have more than a billion talents combined together. Islam IS >peaceful.

Not according to Osama bin Laden, Moqtada Al Sadr, this UNC student, Zarqawi, etc., etc., etc."

Osama and others are not islamic scholars

"No one cares whether you think Islam is peaceful or not."
but the facts remian the same

"It is what it is"
it comes from the quran

"Somehow, pretty much everyone else in the world seems to be getting on just fine without ball bearing laden suicide vests. Hindus. Buddhists. Jews. Christians. Sikhs. Chinese. Japanese. French. But not the Muslims."
read the aricle of this margolis guy

"Saying Islam is peaceful seems, well, like someone is ashamed to face reality."
thts ur opinion cuz u are ignorant about islam

"
>"Sir, I do not wish to belittle you or your beliefs"
>a lone human cant belittle the religion sent by god

Then why are people calling for these Danish cartoonists to be "beheaded"?"
who is is they?

"If these millions and millions of followers of the religion of peace didn't think the cartoons had severely threatened and belittled their beliefs, "
They dont threaten or belittle our beliefs, only shows what hypocrites christians are. before this guy made the cartoons, he was asked to make the cartoons of Jesus(P). he didnt. fearing backlash. also when iran decided to have a competition of cartoons based on holocaust, the germans and christians started crying.

"why did they suddenly call for death, torture, execution, of the simple artists who drew them?"
Who is they? all muslims? there are 1.2 billion muslims in this world. the ppl who u refer as 'they' are probably the 1-10% extremists who are ignorant about Islam. also most of the protests around the world are peaceful. very few have turned violent. but these violent ones make good news stories.

">"I suggest for that, for the good of all, you think hard before drawing ridiculous parallels >meant to prove Western hypocrisy or that really, Muslims are just peaceful good neighbors >like everyone else. If you and about a billion other people like you don't very quickly become >a lot more open and clear minded on such issues, then we are in for some bloody times >indeed. "
>I am open minded. its your turn

Well, Tariq, I guess you got me with that one!"

not yet. but keep debating

"Here you are, saying, "Islam is peace" and then basically saying, "His revenge is really no >different than Americans taking out the Taliban."""

i never said that islam means peace and i never said tht 'His revenge is really no different than Americans taking out the Taliban.' stop putting words in my mouth.

"Am I putting words in your mouth? Not at all. In fact,"
hmmmmmm.....

"You point to "Iraq war, etc." to "show its not just muslims who kill. criminals are present everywhere"."
thts right. we have criminals everywhere

" My point is that not all "killing" is the same and you just muddle everything together into an ugly mess of moral equivalence"
ofcourse. u are a christian. so if a chrisitian kills, it ok all killings are not same. but if a non-muslim-who-thinks-he-is-a-muslim kills, then all muslims are terrorists!!!! very good william. u are just like most other islamophobes.

"You call Islam the religion of peace, "
thats right

"yet your muddled perspective will lead to never ending killing, revenge, violence."
How?

"US soldiers kill guys shooting at them, scurying to plant bombs to kill either them or innocent civilians"
yes but WHY are those 'guys' shooting at them?

"They hunt down and kill the kinds of people who blew up the mosque of the golden dome."
and then abu ghareib.(if i were to use your logic, then just because a few american christians were involved in abu ghareib, ALL AMERICANS AND CHRISTIANS ARE LIKE THAT!!!!!!)

"Terrorists like this UNC student just go out and kill people going about their business on a sunny day. "
is that my problem? just because this guy thinks he's doing somthing Islamic does not change the fact wot he is doing is UNISLAMIC

"Very few Iraqis/Afghans, etc. die because an American soldier just says, "Hey, let's go kill someone today." Muslim terrorists -- and there are many, many of them -- live only to murder"
many more died when USA sold weapons to Iraq to attack iran, and US ambassador said she had no objection. and many more died when US attacked their iraqi terrorist 'friends'

"And they have legions of quiet sympathizers among your fellow followers of the religion of peace."
SHEESH!!! til now u dont realize that we dont consider them as my 'fellow followers' and that we are not their sympathizers?suppose i were to ask u y u support hitler, and y u are his sympathizer?

"Cannot the relgion of peace distinguish between killing some guy who's planting a bomb to stir civil war and killing unsuspecting people on their way to work at the corner grocery or in the post office?"
we can. but u cant.

"If the religion of peace cannot make this distinction, it's just barbaric."
religions dont make distinction, humans do. are u a human? then y do u have difficulty in makig a distinction between muslims following Quran and 'muslims' not following Quran?

"Laughable. Laughable, sir.I sure hope you do not believe your own analogies here"
why not. lets make it simple:

a man says hes christian.
this man kills 6 million jews.
so hes called evil by other christians
and they say hes an atheist.
and that his actions have nothing to do with christianity

ok easy till here? u understanding?
lets proceed.

a crazy guy, osama "the pajama" bin laden becomes a terrorist.(trained by and later angered by americans)
along with his taliban friends he kills muslims and non muslims.
911 comes and usa blames osama "the pajama" bin laden. taliban want proof.
usa gives no proof so osama "the pajama" bin laden confesses.
so wot chrisitians do is that they say:
"Hey! this pajama guy named osama has killed many innocent muslims and no-muslims, so that means Islam is not peaceful!!!
theses christians dot realise that the Islamic countries are SUPPORTING the statess against osama.even his home country saudia arabia. also his actions are unislamic.

"You again try to save yourself the trouble of criticizing the religion of peace,"
want me to criticize CHRISTIANITY?

"the tradition of your mommy and daddy, "
the religion sent by GOD

"by claiming the west has double standards."
a fool will disagree

""When a muslim kills, they say 'muslim killer', when a christian kills, they say 'insane killer'". "
seems like u dont read newspapers. any article that has to do with any kind of crime, would highlight the religion if it is Islam.

"Nonsense! The central motif of Hitler's message was superiority of the Aryan (white) race and of Germans in particular."
i dont care wot his motifs were

"Westerners never shy away from this"
and shy away from the fact that his christianty was responsible for killing 6 million jews.

"He identified himself as a Nazi, an Aryan, a German."
ok so.

"That's what the masses of his followers identified themselves as Not Christian.."

oh really? i'll copy paste my previous comments to joe:

Joe:"Please tell the rest of the Muslim world, becuase I have seen this a lot-Hitler and the Holocaust was not Christian."

Tariq:
"But he was. Not only was he Christian, but it was his Christian upbringing and beliefs tht led to the Holocaust.
Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. In fact the Church felt he was JUST and "avenging for God" in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ


"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." Adolf Hitler; from John Toland, Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#_note-0)

It was in Vienna that Hitler first became an active anti-Semite. This was a common stance among Austrians at the time, mixing traditional RELIGIOUS prejudice with recent racist theories.(emphasis added) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)

"There were very few Jews in Linz. In the course of centuries the Jews who lived there had become Europeanized in external appearance and were so much like other human beings that I even looked upon them as Germans. The reason why I did not then perceive the absurdity of such an illusion was that the only external mark which I recognized as distinguishing them from us* was the practice of their strange RELIGION. As I thought that they were persecuted on account of their faith my aversion to hearing remarks against them grew almost into a feeling of abhorrence. I did not in the least suspect that there could be such a thing as a systematic anti-Semitism.
Once, when passing through the inner City, I suddenly encountered a phenomenon in a long caftan and wearing black side-locks. My first thought was: Is this a Jew? They certainly did not have this appearance in Linz. I watched the man stealthily and cautiously but the longer I gazed at the strange countenance and examined it feature by feature, the more the question shaped itself in my brain: Is this a German?"
(Mein Kampf, vol. 1, chap. 2: "Years of study and suffering in Vienna")
*notice he says ‘us', not me

"The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie." Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

In the 1920s, Hitler's German Workers' Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a "Programme" with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a "positive" Christianity: "We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession..."

You can expect this from an atheist: -
"By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence." – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922
(Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)

"…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I AM FIGHTING FOR THE WORK OF THE LORD." –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hitler was a Christian. And he had close relations with ‘christianity leaders':

"On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."
(Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

Buy theses books:
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670886939/freethinkers/103-5944751-6611051)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0306809311/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/103-5944751-6611051?n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0253214718/ref=pd_sim_b_2/103-5944751-6611051?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
when it comes to Hitler, Christians quickly label him as an atheist. But wen it comes to munafiqs like bin laden, Christians say that he is a true muslim and Islam is violent.
Typical Christian double standards. Lets make a deal. U say tht bin laden is not a muslim and his acts are unIslamic, and I'll agree tht Hitler was an atheist.
(http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/38950)

i'll add some more quotes from the webpages that i have quoted:
"Phayer makes an important addition to the literature of Holocaust studies: he provides evidence that Pope Pius XII (who reigned over the Catholic Church from 1939 to 1958) knew in early 1942 what was happening to Europe's Jews (and to non-Jews in Croatia and Poland)Ayet he remained silent. The pope, he argues, was a Germanophile who had been schooled as a diplomat: treaties (particularly one he'd drafted between Germany and Rome in 1933) and the Communist threat were his main priorities. Protection of Vatican City from Allied or Axis bombs was another. Phayer contends that, had the pope resisted the Nazis and informed his flockAeither overtly or through existing secret channelsAabout what was happening, there would have been many more Catholic rescuers and fewer collaborators than there were. Phayer also details the Church's postwar policies; it played its part in helping Nazis escape justice, he contends, rather than support efforts to force Germany to pay reparations to survivors. Phayer, however, doesn't only describe the years of Pius XII; he contrasts him with Pope Pius XI and Pope John XXIII (who respectively preceded and followed him), and in doing so he makes a forceful point about the difference strong leadership can make. Both Pius XI and John XXIII used their positions of infallibility to openly and publicly encourage cordiality and acceptance of Jews, culminating in the Church's 1965 declaration that the Jews were not responsible for crucifying Jesus. Pius XII, says Phayer, was in contrast a weak leader and a cowardly oneAand the author argues that, given the conditions under which he served, his lack of courage proved devastating. "
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0253214718/ref=pd_sim_b_2/103-1137388-8968624?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155)

The New York Review of Books
"The tragic failure of the Catholic Church to live up to its moral canons in the confrontation with Nazism is traced in shattering detail in this disturbing book."

Book Description
A provocative topic of never-ending interest, treated with "great clarity and courage" (William L. Shirer)
"The subject matter of this book is controversial," Guenter Lewy states plainly in his preface. To show the German Catholic Church's congeniality with some of the goals of National Socialism and its gradual entrapment in Nazi policies and programs, Lewy describes the episcopate's support of Hitler's expansionist policies and its failures to speak out on the persecution of the Jews. To this tragic history Lewy brings new focus and research, illuminating one of the darkest corners of our century with scholarship and intellectual honesty in a riveting, and often painful, narrative.


So do we have a deal? u say osama is not a muslim cuz he does not follow Quran. and i agree that hitler was not a christian. DEAL???

"He was a white supremicist mass murderer. I'm white, and I identify him as such. I feel some shame for my race, but I do not run from that fact by just saying he was insane and "not a real white""
yes but u do say tht he is not a christian.

"you say these terrorists are not "real muslims"."
well they arent. and u are welcome to prove me wrong. just quote 1 verse from the quran which would allow muslims to commit sins which osama did
"Once again, the west is very good at self-criticism"
then criticize urself. the fact that u blame a religion just because a terrorist is not following it.

"Oh, and if you listen to many, perhaps most, muslims in the world, the holocaust was really a myth or a Zionist conspiracy. "
so wot do u want me to do? and how do u know that its MOST? Have u counted them all? oh and this reminds me; christians tells me that bible says to love your enemy, if u believe the same thing, then i want u to say this to the JEWS WHO SURVIVED THE HOLOCAUST, and their decendents!!! can u do that?

"Once again demonstrating Muslims' unparalleled talent of trying to pass off truly ridiculous analogies on the rest of mankind, Ahmadinejad (Iranian president) wants to "inspect" the concentration camps in Poland is response to western demands to "inspect" Iran's nuclear sites."
u very conveniently forgot to mention that 1 reason for this is the cartoon controversy.
also iran being a muslim country is not allowed weapons. but non-muslim country in ME are allowed.

"Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Palestinian territories are a completely, absolutely different >species of animal"
>What a way to defend american aggression!!!

Quite effective, I think."
right.US attack iraq for oil. ok
munafiq comit sins, islam is not peaceful.

"America invaded Afghanistan because they supported Bin Laden and other terrorists."
>wheres the proof? i dont believe in confessions of a person trained and supported and armed >by USA. especially wen he very conveniently accepts 911 wen the americans can aome up >with no evidence, leading to attack in afghanistan, presence in Central Asia which lead to >access to the ATLEAST 700 billion cubic meters of gas in tajikistan

Okay, so you're also a paranoid conspiracy theorist'
this is not a conspiracy. its politics...and economics. u dont want another oil embargo do u?

"I could dimantle this illusion as well,"
u are living in an illusion that bible is gods word. want me to dismantle it?

"but this response is getting long. "
right

"Maybe I'll post something else on this after my final exams are over."
good luck in your exams

They shoot not to kill indiscriminantly, but to take out the guys pointing guns at us or planting >bombs or executing school teachers who deign to allow little girls in their classrooms. "
>
>I dont care HOW they do it. I care WHY they do it.

"What? It actually seems to be precisely the reverse."
SEEMS???

"To you, a death is a death is a death. "
umm no. y do u say that?

"Or, I should say, the only distinction you make is between muslim and non-muslim blood. "
no i make a distinction between the way USA treats muslims and others, and the way chrisitians think of hitler and osama

"The blood of a muslim insurgent murderer rapist "
in Islam, once a person has been convicted of being a rapist he should be killed. period. no comparison with any1 else.

"worth more than the blood of an infidel charity worker, right?"
wrong. i have nothing against a non-muslim charity worker(dont say infidel, does not sound good). these charity workers are few non-muslims who understand tht there is a difference in wot Islam TELLS muslims to do and wot they actually do. i wish more ppl were like them.

">"I actually suspect that Americans are killing very, very few Iraqis at this point."
>HA HAHA"

you yourself said 'I SUSPECT'

"Americans are not killing, nor are they being killed in great numbers in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else.
they have already killed thousands. also they are indirectly causing deaths of many muslims. and death is not the only thing. u have disease and poverty(this would be reduced if ur country stops using sanctions on muslim countries, and if it stops muslims to acquire weapons while at the same time selling weapons to non-muslim countries)

"Case in point. A few days ago, Americans dropped a bomb on a house holding some insurgents and some innocent civilians were (unintentionally) killed. There was _a lot_ of press about it"
but no no 'press about it' wen US supports killing of muslims in occupied territories.

">"And the ones they kill, yeah, they're the ones who just launched a mortar shell or planted a >bomb."
>like the pregnant women killed in the radio station?

Don't know what you're talking about. But before you jump on this and claim I'm just ignorant, ask yourself, in the spirit of rational inquiry, does what you're saying or thinking really detract from my argument or are you just comforting yourself in your simple view that Islam means peace and America and those pesky Jews are really to blame for everything?"

understood later? right? so i'll reply later

">"We do not wish to kill civilians."
>Then u are a FAILURE

We are always striving to get better. And we do.
right. u find better ways to target muslims. example the dubai ports deal.
y is it that the muslim countries support ur war on terror, yet christians defend that cartoonist? all we need is an apology from either the cartoonist, the newpaper, or the countrys leader. i read in the newspapers some letters from danish ppl apologizing on their countries behalf. but they dont represent their country. i wish other christians were so tolerant.

"Pretty much everything positive around you came from western ambition to improve the lot of mankind."
cartoon controversy(which apparently all christians visitors on this site support)

I hope you appreciate that. No, I didn't think so. In the next war, we will be even more precise and the number of unintended deaths will be even lower. "
but y attack in the first place?

"Utter hogwash. Again, it is comforting to be able to blame your problems on America"
like the sanctions on muslim countries facilitate the development of muslim countries

"Why are the Chinese doing so well economically?"
china is too powerful. u cant bully it so easily. also they have nuclear weapons. and americans have learned a lessen in korea and vietnam.

"And how about those hated Indians (Hindus)? "
i dont hate them. one of my friends is hindu. i live in a country with 70 different nationalities. i have had friends from many countries including: India,USA,Pakistan,Iran,Sudan,Palestine,Syria,Saudia Arabia, Burundi etc. we are all very tolerant of each other.

"Why is there peace throughout the world except in and around muslim populations (and various places in Africa)?"
u know y there is no peace in middle east dont u?

"Islam has deep, deep identity issues"
read the Quran and UNDERSTAND it.

"that are causing millions of people to cry jihad "
lol your sentence does not make any sense. u said:'that are causing millions of people to cry strive...'

"and devote their lives to death out of all proportion to any injustice they may have felt"
and instead of looking at those injustices and the reason y these so called want to become terrorists u attack them and blame Islam.
If american army were to respect our religion and withdraw their soldiers from saudia arabia, terrorist activities would reduce drastically around the globe as the munafiqs no longer have any excuse to attack christians and blame islam

" Take the Chinese. Or the Hindus. Or those vile Jews as an example"
chinese have nuclear weapon, veto power in UN etc.
India has american support be it buying weapons or anything else.
Jews have the support for israel and the occupying of palestinian lands.
Muslims are being killed in Palestine their land is occupied and they are being killed everyday. Iran, Pakistan and Algeria faced sanctions for acquiring weapons. Israel…

" Have these great peoples not felt injustice of some sort or another?'
Maybe. and all have their own share of criminals(china is always criticized of it humans rights abuses. my indian hindu friend admitted many things about kashmir. wanna know wot they are?)

"Believe me, each of them harbors their own anger and frustration. The difference is that these peoples have realized that to make the world a better place for themselves and others, they should set differences aside and work toward economic, political, and cultural liberalization. Their grievances will be addressed, but they do not focus maniacally on them. And perhaps it's even a good thing if, after a few decades, somebody forgets that his great great uncle was killed by a member of some other tribe."

it has nothing to do with bin laden or other non-muslims. if it does, tell them not me.

"Muslims, on the other hand, have committed themselves to... vengence."
correction:munafiqs, on the other hand...

"Contrast your fellow followers of the religion of peace with Chinese, Hindus, Jews, etc."
hmmmm. ahamd zafire is 1 of them. read his comments.

">"What would be even closer is if some random American tourist ran over a bunch of people >in a park in Tehran and then said Jesus made 'em do it"
>If this ever happens, ppl will say that that soldeir ws not christian. but wen a muslim does >UNISLAMIC acts he is a muslim, and muslims are terrorists. hypocrites

You have no idea how wrong you are. Do you realize how many Americans despise the Christians among them and see them as a threat to freedom? Many American Jews, in particular, fear the Christian right, and many are very politically vocal and active. If some guy yelled out "Jesus is great!" before killing some innocent people (or anyone else, for that matter), the NY Times, CNN, etc. etc. would love to report the headline "Man Murders in Name of Jesus". They'd probably call him "the Jesus killer"."

after abu ghareib i read no articles saying:'christians finally show tru colours' or 'american agenda exposed' or any other headline which u might lie. even Salon.com doesnt have any such headline. i visited this website and this caught my eye:
"Bomb Blast Kills 6 in Pakistani Police Van"
(http://www.salon.com/wire/ap/archive.html?wire=D8GEGV8G7.html)
like i have said before, osama and his fellow hypocrites are not just killing non-muslims, but muslims as well.

"Occasionally, there is a bizaare cult based on Christianity that does something really weird, like committing mass suicide. For example, David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. The press never says they aren't Christian. They just say the name of their sect or their church, literally how these people identified themselves. Seems like the reasonable thing to do, right?

right. agreed. just because few christians form a cult and say they are the real christians does not mean that all christians are like that. i agree with u 100 percent. but now that u have said something that i have been trying to tell other chrisitans for a long time, u should urself believe in it; just because a cult (taliban) distort the message of islam, it does not mean that all muslims are terrorists. but u have a sect, they are:munafiq

"Stop ducking from self-criticism."
there is nothing in my religion to be criticized.

">"but I beg you to rethink the consequences of intentionally trying to see every act of Islamic >terrorism as on par with US military"
>I know. and they have showed this by practically doing it, by bullying, but intimidating, and by >ALWAYS having foreign policies which are unfair to muslims and F. policies which show the >true face of christians

Everyone gather round for a pity party for those Muslims who are treated so "unfairly" by the west."
i'll just qoute u:"Stop ducking from self-criticism"!!!!

"I imagine you're talking about US support for Israel.
and much more.

"History is messy"
and who created this mess after WW2?

"Wars have happened"
i know

"Muslims have killed"
only on 3 circumstances are the followers of Islam to fight wars:
1)to defend themselves
2)to defend the Islamic way of life
3)to free oppressed ppl(even if they are non-muslims)

"Christians have killed"
bible allows far more reasons to kill

"Not many Jews have killed, as it turns out. But then there aren't too many of them around."
right. yet the effect in israel is great. i read somewhere that israel has been cited many more time than china for human rights abuses, but no response from the west. and wen its chinas turn...hypocrites

"What do you expect the US to do, tell Israel to pack up their belongings and move back to Germany, Russia, etc?"
i EXPECT them to keep supporing the slaughter of muslims. but wot i WANT them to do is simply stay out of it, or do wot they would have done had muslims occupied parts of usa.
suppose muslims arrive in florida in large numbers, buy the land there, and push americans out, and kill them would u support them? or will u tell them to 'pack up their belongings and move back'???

"My good American upbringing has taught me there are some battles worth fighting "
BATTLES WORTH FIGHTING? tell this to Lisa!!!!!!

"nd some worth saying we'd all be better off if we just called that one a loss and moved on."
move on so that it happens again

"I get the impression that muslims are just hell-bent on looking for a fight whereever they can find one." thats not true. but even if it was, u never wondered that they DO get the fights?

"Like they're trying to avoid looking at themselves and finding fault in the ridiculously outmoded traditions that mommy and daddy taught them."

our religion has no faults, and culture, every1s cultue looks as though it has faults to others. ur comments show how intolerant u are.

>"Think about that for a second. Muslims like yourself are fond of saying the US "destroyed" >Afghanistan and Iraq."
>and u kill muslims.

We kill the guys planting bombs and killing schoolteachers. Our soldiers don't ask their religion before pulling the trigger."
You are the one who gave them bombs.

"We firebombed Tokyo in WWII and killed 100,000 Japanese civilians in one night. That was with antique weapons. America killed relatively few civilians in taking over Afghanistan and Iraq and quickly repaired any infrastructure that was destroyed. We could make Iraq uninhabitable, if we wanted. Try not to exaggerate the "injustices" the west has visited upon muslims. Neither muslims nor westerners want the west to make your foolish exaggerations come true."

Did I ever say that u used N bombs on iraq? And im not exaggerating, but quite the opposite. Seems like u don't read the newspapers
If u really are a ignorant as u pretend to be about ur F. policies effect, I think u should visit these websites:
http://www.invitation2truth.com/palestinian-tragedy/album.html
http://www.bringbackjustice.com/

u can learn more about Islam's stand on terrorism ate:
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/

>"Reflect on that a moment, then understand just what remarkable restraint and precision the >United States has employed in taking down two regimes."
>When the iraq war started for no reason, i read an article in newsweek(yeah the amrican >supporting mag) tht a bunker buster bomb was dropped in an iraqi radio station. killing a >pregnant women and a small hand was sticking out of her stomach. precision?! bunker >busters are to be used against the taliban hypocrites in afghan mountains, not in decaying >buildings

"Terrible image, isn't it? And you think we Americans are manipulated by the "Jewish media"? You hear of one horrific event and then you start muddling all forms of killing together, as I argued (very effectively) above. Sounds like you hear of one terrible incident and lose your senses. Hitler would've loved more followers like you."

One incident? Are u mad?

"US military planners took out a radio station. That's common in wartime. It prevents leaders from communicating with their subjects. On behalf of the United States of America, I humbly apologize that our engineers have not (YET) perfected a weapon that will destroy only the radio transmitting capability and spare any pregnant woman who happens to be next to that equipment."
The point is not that a woman was killed. The point is that a bunker buster used to flatten mountains was used on a decaying building. That also in a war without reason.

"But since you said you care about "why" this woman was killed and not "how", I assume you realize that the US military went to extraordinary lengths to minimize casualties on both sides. War ain't pretty. But it's a noble and worthy goal to minimize injury on all sides as much as possible."
Y this woman was killed, y this war started, and y US supports any1 against muslims, and y muslims killed,tortured, and tormented in israel everyday

"911. To claim there isn't a problem with terrorism among muslims, even "false" muslims, is just idiocy"
To claim that US foreign policies are having no ‘negative' effect on muslims is just ignorance. U probably don't even know WHY many ‘muslims' became terrorists and caused 9 11 wtc bombing of 90's etc

"America isn't powerful enough just to go in and pick out those "fake" muslims and kill them."
But America is capable of revising certain policies and stop mulims turning into fake muslims

"What are we going to do, just sit by and what your coreligionists boil over into a global movement of violent jihad against the west?"
I cant answer ur question because u don't understand that YOUR COUNTRY is responsible for creating theses terrorists directly or indirectly. If US withdraws its troops from ME, and becomes fair in dealing with muslims in ME, there would be no ‘muslim terrorist.

">"... but very rarely because an American soldier gratuitously killed them"
>watch al jazeera.
>the tally would open your eyes

I read the Al Jazeera website probably twenty times a day."
Then tell me how many Iraqi civilians have been killed till now, compared to American troops. Also tell me how many muslim lives were lost wen iraq attacked iran and Kuwait using AMERICAN supplied weapons.

"When's the last time you saw a story about an American soldier gratuitously killing anyone?"
Don't remember. But I see Israelis killing muslims almost everyday

>"And when such cases occur, we all hope the perpetrators go to prison."
>Send bush, and all those who voted for him to prison

I voted for him."
Then go to prison.

"Well, Tariq, the distinction I'm making is between gratuitous killing of innocents (muslims) and targeted killing in order to have better control over those societies that are breeding our enemies (US military). And this "better control" amounts to liberalization and greater individual freedom. Pretty good reasons to kill, I think."

You didn't answer my questions:
Hitler was a christian. dont u see the distinction in ur blaming of religions? Dont you see the distinction in your treatment of muslim states?
And don't u see the distinction that Israelis have?

"Your distinction is between the way the "Jewish" western media portrays muslim and christian criminals and killers. I think I ridiculed this nonsense to a sufficient level above."
No u didn't. u only showed how ignorant u are about the treatment of muslims
Osama and saddam are muslim terrorists according to ur media, but Israelis are not. Why?

">ANSWER MY QUESTIONS
>Should IRAN be allowed to have nuclear weapons(or other WMDs)?
>Should USA be allowed to have nuclear weapons(or other WMDs)?!!!

Answers: No. Yes."

I was expecting that

If Iran gets a nuke and either attacks Israel or the US, you're going to either applaud them or say, "They're not real muslims". A lot of good that'll do, sir. I live in the real world""
But u should also know WHY iran will attack US or Israel? Anyways iran cant attack US, u are too far away

"Ahmadinejad is a nut"
Half nut.
"If you say it is true that you (Germany) massacred and burned six million Jews during the Second
World War, if you committed this massacre, why should the Palestinians pay the price?"
(Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad)
I don't agree with the ‘if' but the rest is ok. the western world couldn't answer this question, so they did what u did William, use ad hominem tactics. Very pathetic
Read the article here: http://www.bringbackjustice.com/TheHolyTrinityAntiSemitismHolocaustAndIsrael.html

"Iranians are focused on their cult of revolutionary islam. How many followers of the religion of peace have chanted "Death to America", "Death to Israel", etc. Pretty focused on "death", aren't they?"
And wots the reason?

"Do you not believe there's a significant chance Iran will somehow "lose" a nuclear weapon to some terrorist group that detonates it somewhere in the west?"
Why would they?

"Do you not believe that if that happened, followers of the religion of peace wouldn't be openly rejoicing? To not protect ourselves from this obvious threat would be insanity."
So u attack them? Instead u could ask yourself WHY u have his threat. Then look at your handling of muslims and the answer will come t u. after that u can change ur f policies and that threat would vanish.

"The US has no desire to destroy any people in the world."
They just support others who want to kill muslims.

"Muslims picked this fight."
I believe after WWII, it was the british who supprted breaking up of a muslim country by stealing their land and killing them. And it is the us who supports them unconditionally even though it has cost them billions of dollars over the years.

"Believe me when I say that up until 911, most Americans barely knew that Islam existed and most of those that did just didn't care."
They don't know anything now either. They ae too ignorant about the rest of the world specially ME

"On the other hand, muslims have been obsessed with blaming their decrepit cultures and societies on the west for decades now."
Why is that?

"Again, my advice: learn a bit of the great western talent of self-criticism."
I am criticizing ur F policy. But u pretend to be ignorant about its effect.

">"While we prosecute the war thinking, "How do we minimize the number of innocent >casualties"
>Y attack in the first place? for tajik gas and iraqi oil?

Again, I will deal with your crazy conspiracy non-sense some other time, if I have the time and you're willing to be convinced."
Lol another example of ad hominem. Ur pathetic William

Sunday, 23 September, 2001, 12:30 GMT 13:30 UK
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.
The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.
Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September.
His photograph was released, and has since appeared in newspapers and on television around the world.
Now he is protesting his innocence from Casablanca, Morocco.
He told journalists there that he had nothing to do with the attacks on New York and Washington, and had been in Morocco when they happened. He has contacted both the Saudi and American authorities, according to Saudi press reports.
He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Daytona Beach in the United States, and is indeed the same Waleed Al Shehri to whom the FBI has been referring.
But, he says, he left the United States in September last year, became a pilot with Saudi Arabian airlines and is currently on a further training course in Morocco.
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm)

Saturday, 22 September, 2001, 20:41 GMT 21:41 UK
Hijack 'suspect' alive in Morocco
By David Bamford in Rabat
A Saudi-Arabian aircraft pilot who was named as one of five suspects on board one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Centre, has turned up alive and well in Morocco.
The man, Waleed Al-Shehri, has told Saudi journalists in Casablanca that he had nothing to do with the attacks on New York and Washington, and had been in Morocco at the time.
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1558669.stm)

CONDOLEZZA RICE WARNED WILLIE BROW NOT TO FLY ON 9-11
Think about it. Where else on earth would Brown get the message not to fly on a particular day? The airport says there was no advisory in place.

Note that when asked, Brown clammed up as to the source. Why?
Searching...

Turns out my hunch ain't a news flash. Just the sussing out of a significant, but very obscure piece of 9-11 trivia.

On May 17, 2002, Pacifica Radio reported that Rice was the source of the call to Brown. See side bar: www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/05/Bush_knew2.html

So in case you missed it:
THE ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT FOR NATIONAL SECURITY AFFAIRS CONDOLEEZZA RICE CALLED A FRIEND THE DAY BEFORE SEPTEMBER 11TH AND TOLD HIM TO STAY OUT OF THE AIR THAT WEEK

(http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1000_


Islam, the religion of peace does not allow terrorism. And osama and saddam are not muslims. If u believe that they are muslim, then u also have to believe that Hitler is a Christian and that his acts were according to Christianity.

-Hitler killes 6 million jews and says he dong it for his lord.
-he says hes a Christian so his lord is Christ.
-therefore he killed 6 million jews for Christ.
-but Christians deny that. They say hes an atheist

-osama ‘the pajama' bin laden kills muslims and non-muslims
-accepts responsibility for 9-11 attacks.
-Christians say he claims to be muslims so he is a muslim and therefore islam promotes terrorism.

Now u have a choice William. Either u accept that Osama ‘the pajama' bin laden is a muslim and islam promotes violence, and therefore accept that Christianity promotes killing of 6 million jews
Or chose that Hitler was not practicing Christianity and therefore also accept the TRUTH*, that osama ‘the pajama' is not a muslim and that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.

*I am not sure where, but I think I read in the bible to ‘seek the truth, and it shall set u free'

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