russia etc

Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kafiristan (Australia), Nov 10, 2009 at 21:31

Ianus writes:

"....It's remarkable that you repeatedly refer to the Treaty of Tartu presumably without being aware of how and why it came into being. And its story is most revealing and worth knowing , indeed.Before the chaos concomitant the end of WWI Estonia - just like Latvia and Finland – had never existed as states in history. "

Livonia (most of Estonia ) was in existence as a distinct society (a loose confederation of small states having a common Finno-ugric language) around 1200 and as Estonia since 1500's though variously occupied by Danes, Swedes, Germans and Russians. Poor buggers - have had a hell of a time maintaining their unique culture and language.

"Simultaneously, those Whites and refugees who somehow managed to enter Estonia were mistreated and exposed to all possible hardships and forced labour or pushed back, probably to please Estonia's new friend - Leninist Russia which was the first country to diplomatically recognize Estonia. This fact the self-righteous Russian-hating Estonian jingoists prefer to keep in silence though."

Finland is another curious case. Before the German intervention in 1917-1918 there had never existed such a state as Finland. It was an autonomous Grand Duchy within the Russian Empire. Historically Finland had been longer under Russian rule (1809-1917) than it's been an independent state (1917-2009). What was before is part of Swedish history. Finns were peasants and the political class was all Swedish . "

Yes - correct

"The large Swedish minority in Finland today is a remnant of the remote glorious history. The city name you quote is purely Swedish "Vyborg" (=Viewcastle). In the course of the Great Northern War (1700-1721) the Russian conquered Swedish territories after all, not Finnish.

I was going to point out that Vyborg was a Swedish castle but didn't want to add too much detail to the discussion. You see the Swedish place names and street names all throughout Finland - especially in Helsinki

"Who in "democracies" cares about what every third non-citizen feels?Russians have been openly discriminated in Estonia ".

and easily within living memory , non-Russians (i.e. Estonians) had been more than openly discriminated against by Russians in Estonia. The situation currently I guess it's a bit of social justice - long term payback. Understandable but unfortunate. After all - many Russians are not slavic - but Finno-ugric and descendants of Swedes .

"I'd be cautious about your implied enthusiasm as to belonging to Eurabia. The EU is a bureaucratic monster which is slowly spreading its tentacles destroying nation states, national identities and implementing its nasty agendas. No good news for anyone except bureaucrats and lobbyists and Moslem immigrants."

100% with you on that.

> See 'Treaty of Tartu'.

"Yes, this Treaty of Tartu ...I have seen it. See above!"

nevertheless, Russia reneged on its territorial promises to Estonia.

> . The Baltic states had no real choice - either be part of the EU - or flounder along as independent tiny countries with tiny economies.

"....Isn't it hubris that makes you tell us we had no other choice? "

When I referred to the Baltic States - I was not referring to Poland ,Denmark, Germany, Sweden or Finland - but Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

Finland did have a choice and still prefers neutrality, although now NATO fascists want to absorb it too, but we East Europeans didn't deserve a try of being without self-proclaimed protectors ?

"Frankly, after getting rid of the Soviet soldiers on our military bases, we don't need to fill them with black US soldiers and foreign flags. Our oligarchs sold our freedom and US oligarchs bought it. No choice or even a fair discussion was allowed. The new monster has come of age."

yes - the joke is replacing one red passport for another. I agree with you on the EU - the ratification of the Lisbon treaty and talk of EU-wide taxation and more power to the president etc is a dangerous thing.

> So , naturally because they share a border with Russia - Rusia appears to become encircled.

"appears"...? Imagine for a moment the US breaks up into 15 sovereign states and Russian troops are stationed in Texas and Alaska while New England is guarded by Russian planes and the Oregon military armed to the teeth with Russian weapons attacks California to get a few square miles of disputed land ... And then under these conditions imagine someone saying "America appears to become encircled..."

Yes - 'appears' - the EU has no miltary designs on Russia. The point I was making was based on the geographic locations of the EU states. The EU via the Baltic states immediately adjoin Russia - so naturally you could say that the EU is 'encircling' Russia. Russia does not adjoin Texas or Alaska or New England.

"Depending what part of Ukraine you are talking about. Russia has many supporters in Eastern Ukraine while Ukrainian jingoism is worst in the West of the country, i.e. in former Polish Ukraine."

Yes - I'm aware of that - eastern Ukraine is very much pro-Russian

"You quote Russia like being without allies. I myself don't know if having as allies the Saudis, the Turks or the Pakis isn't much more dangerous than being without them?"

valid point

"..... Why the Albanians have not been officially accused of committing a genocide against the Serbs as they have done it and keep doing it ?..But no! Instead after 9/11 what I could hear was "Why did they do that to us? We were so kind to them. We created two Moslem states for them after all, didn't we? "

yes - that's pretty disgusting - you'd think people would wise up by now.

"What sort of "democracy" is it that overnight declares some 30% of its population non-citizens, discriminates them, expels them with heavy-handed or subtle administrative tricks (e.g. a Russian after 1991 could travel abroad freely but could no longer return to his home. No visas had been given to him), makes their life impossible, gives them no right to work and if work is available, then pay is always lower than with the full citizens of pure Estonian descent. Sorry, but my idea of democracy has few common points with this fascist parody."

Having lived there I can guarantee you it is not as bad as you're making out. The Russians I met there were very friendly people and got on well with native Estonians. Those who weren't drinking vodka in parks were working normal jobs. The language barrier is one reason for seeming discrimination in the job front. If you can't speak Estonian - what good are you in a bank or similar? My Estonian vocab is very limited - so I have no illusions about getting a high-powered job in the Estonian economy. Similarly in my own country - if you don't speak English - you can forget about getting anywhere in the upper echelons of business. An interesting thing to note is that when Putin was in power - he offered Russians in the Baltics a sum of money and Russian passports if they wanted to move to Russia, - hardly anyone took the offer up.

"You speak much here of the Estonian perspective, my friend."

Yes, I've lived there and while not holding myself out to be an expert have some insight into the people and there history and current sentiments. And being a Pole - I can understand you might have some allegiance to Slavic people.

"....Let me recall in this bellicose context some of the exploits of the Estonian SS in WWII. Now with the joy to humiliate the former 'occupiers' and play the favourite Western card of the holy underdog, the Estonians have had the cheek to erect monumets to glorify their SS men and desecrate monuments to the Soviets that had died fighting these Estonian fascists."

There was no 'descration' it was the simple relocation of a bronze statue from Tallinn city to a military cemetery 3kms away. It presented a loss of face to many of the Russians living in Estonia. Not all though. Most Estonians do see the Soviet era as a Russian occupation. They were forced to learn Russian, had to tolerate the Russification of their country, Russian speakers got the best jobs etc people shipped to Siberia, the KGB torture chambers in Tallinn etc. Just guessing - but being a Pole - I'm sure you'd have your own stories in that regard.

"Once upon a time the Estonians asked Hitler to defend them. Now they are asking the continuators of Hitler's Balkan policy to do the same. Strange analogies."

and some other Estonians asked Stalin to protect them from Hitler. For many it was a case of 'the devil you know'

"....I beg your pardon? The events in South Osetia clearly show that it is NATO that by arming and training and giving blanket political support to pseudo-democrats and militarists like Saakashvili created this war. "

The point I was making is that Russia still has no qualms against invading a sovereign state when it think it can and should. If Russians in Narva claimed they were being attacked by Estonians - they could use that as an excuse to occupy Estonian territory and 'protect' the 98% Russian populace living in that region of Estonia.

" During a short civil war in Tajikistan more Tajiks were killed than during the whole WWII. But you'd feel offended if I called it a tragedy, wouldn't you ?"

???. Completely lost me on that one - why would I call it a tragedy ? Other than that of course some innocent people must have suffered needlessly?

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".