our pet side-topic

Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Nov 21, 2009 at 05:05

Other readers - I hope you find the tete a tete between ianus on myself on this subject in some sense informative. I realise it is only slightly relevant to the subject of another insidous evil appearing in our own time - but nevertheless it is informative.

"......What sort of sentiments would you feel if you thought of the Jews saved by the Red Army for a moment ?"
Actually, I doubt very many Jews were saved by the RedArmy in Estonia - as Nazi maps clearly declare Estland as 'Juden frei'.

But the fact that any Jews might have been saved by the Red Army would be counterbalanced by the fate of the Jews buried along the 'road of bones' in eastern Siberia not so very many years into the then future

"...In early 2007 they passed a law on removal of Soviet monuments."
what you fail to mention possibly because you don't know is that before this occurred - the same sorts of laws were being passed and enacted in Russia itself. many Soviet era staues and other life-size memorabilia were being taken down and in many cases - if bronze - being melted down and sold for scrap. No such outcry from the Russian populace at that time. Isn't it logical that the Estonians could have shown even less affection for them? But the fact is that the 'Bronze Soldier' was not melted down - the remains of the 12 soldiers buried there were returned to relatives in Russia who expressed a desire for their retutn.

"... Hidden behind this law they attacked the Soviet Monument "
the Soviet monument was never attacked - in fact it was guarded by Estonian police - to stave off confrontation between Estonians and Estonian Russians (and Russians who had been imported for the fun and games.)

"...and showed the Russians as hooligans and barbarians to the West while they aptly forgot to tell the public what sort of scenes could be seen while the Nazi monument was being removed earlier on order from a foreign political respresentative."
The numbers of Estonians involved in the SS monument potests was greatly dwarfed by the numbers of Russian sympathisers in the 3 nights of riots that occurred in Tallinn after and during the statue's relocation. The drunken Russians themselves showed by there behaviour they were hooligans and barbarians. For many it was acover to throw rocks through shop windows and resort to theft. Check out 'Bronze Soldier' in YouTube - there's stacks of footage there confirming this behaviour. In fact , MANY Russians living in Estonina were totally ashamed at the behaviour of these pro-Russian demonstrators. Which tells me a lot - that many Russians living in Estonia are for the most part decent people.

> Anecdotally - the only trouble I ever had in Estonia - in terms of unprovoked attacks - was with drunken Russians. But by the same token I had some good expereinces with sober Russians. So, I'll put that down to drink and the fact they realised I wasn't a local...<

and believe me - that could have gotten out of hand - as when such a language barrier exists - it would have been either fight or flight and I don't normally take flight.

"....How about your experiences with tipsy Estonians?"

Truly I never met one - not beligerent drunk. (Was I unlucky?) . My first night there - was quite funny. The very first person to speak directly to me - was a 60 year old Russian drunk - quite mad but very friendly - raving on about all sorts of things in Russian -- trying to bum a cigarette from me. He understood (I think) after about 20 minutes that I didn't smoke. After that a Russian woman stepped in and said something to him. Then she made some disparaging remark about 'English' and sauntered off with a dark look. What was an English speaking person doing in 'her' Estonia maybe?

"Interesting. How could this ruin survive "the Soviet occupation", I wonder ?"

Again - the facts are - it wasn't.

here's a pic: http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/images/Europe/Estonia/Modern_HarjuRuins01_full.jpg

maybe they liked the idea themselves as keeping it as a permanent reminder to the Estonians of who really is the boss? maybe they just mismanaged funds so badly - they had none left to clear up the site

And remarkable suggestion that no German soldier -or Estonian SS man for that matter -could have had an idea to seek safety in an ordinary wooden house, isn't it ?"

The Russian airforce bombed the wooden houses of Estonian civilians near the Town Hall square of this now World Heritage listed Old Town. There was no suggestion that it was being used by German troops. In exactly the same way thatthe Russian (sorry, Soviet but Russian majority) Air Force bombed the refuge ship 'Moero' off the Latvian coast with the loss of 2700 mostly Estonian people - and of course I should mention one other famous atrocity - the sinking of the Wilhelm Gusslof (sp?) in the Baltic by a Russian sub - buti that case it was mostly German civilians who were killed.

"....By the way, the first "judenrein" state in Europe was Estonia – as early as the Wannsee Conference in January 1942. Some ten Jews survived in Estonia while 1000 were killed..."

Yes - so exactly how many did the Red Army save?

"I don't think so. In the depth of their soul these nationalists reject them all –German and Russians. What they dream of is "Estonia for Estonians only"! If an ooportunity were given to them, they would betray all to make Estonia purely Estonian."

I'd be an idiot for even a second to think all Estonians made guilt free decisions in WW2 - some were pro-German and some were pro-Russian. The decisions they made were based on an incorrect knowledge of the facts and no doubt in most cases on an appraisal of their own chances of which was the better way to survive rather than allegiance to either of their former captors

> That's why many jouined the Wehrmacht when Germany 're-arrived' in 1941.<

"Didn't the good Estonians tell you that many Estonians had also fought in the Red Army ? "

No - some bad ones did. They had no qualms about explaining historical facts. Obviously some Estonians with ties to Russia (maybe married to a Russian or with Russian ancestry) thought the Red army was a safer bet. eg. a country with an area of 17413 sq kms vs. the USSR's 22.3million sq kms - with well over one hundred times the population and a very well equipped army. Obviously some people picked them as a likely winner.-

"On the other hand, the mass collaboration in the Baltic is a well-known historical fact. Do you think Stalin was wrong when he persecuted the collaborators after 1944 ? "

Stalin? He persecuted basically whoever he felt was a threat to himself . The term is paranoic megalomania.

"And yet he was milder with them than with the Russian collaborators. When Russians did the same (the Vlasov Army), they were killed on the spot or sent to the uranium or lead mines whence no one returned alive. Many Baltic Nazis were sent back home and somehow survived. Another example showing that the Russians suffered under Stalin more than the Estonians."

And probably suffered more under Stalin than they did under the Nazi onslaught. Were there ever any attempts on Stalin's life that even approached becoming a potential success? As there were in the upper echelons of the German military on Hitler?

The whole point underlyng this discussion is that the Russians - and for that matter the Germans , Danes and Swedes had no moral right to be in Estonia. It was purely and simply imperialism on the part of all these powers that Estonia was occupied inthe first place.

"Ukrainians and many Estonians did by staging anti-Jewish pogroms immediately after the Germans arrived in 1941. For them communism was a Jewish plot. Many Russians saw it also in these terms. "

I've read several articles in the last couple of years which also make this case

"Russia before 1917 was a state ruled by Russians – the tsar was a Russian surrounded by Russian or russified German-Baltic aristocracy, assisted by Russian officers and clergymen and administration. The communists took over this country in 1917 but to rule it they had to eliminate its old ruling elites, i.e. the ruling Russian elite. And what we see after 1917 is a Latvian Division - the Latvian Riflemen - as the backbone of the new regime, a Polish nobleman Felix Dzierzhinski head of the Red Security Force Cheka, Jew Leo Lrotsky reorganizing the Red Army and Georgian Stalin regulating the nationality problems and soon taking all power into his hands to mould the country's destiny."

seemingly a cast of characters scripted from hell.

"By the way, 17% of people here live under the poverty line. Under communism I saw no beggars and homeless. Since the fall of communism I have seen them everywhere.

I can understand the sense of lack of direction when the jobs for life and other trappings of the nanny state get pulled away from under them. Lots of people , used to not being so self-reliant - seemingly thrown on the scrap heap. There are other factors to consider though - a very large one being the super-nanny (actually evil aunty) communist state of China has a lot to answer for in that regard. It has an army of slave labourers paid 60c an hour to do jobs that should have been done in Poland, the US, Canada, EU in general etc But it is also true that capitalists driven blind to the obvious future outcome by the worship of the almighty dollar (or Euro) willingly buy from them. The US - when you include the partially employed in the ranks of the unemployed has a figure fractionally higher than 17%.

Fine national "progress" and promised land of "equality" and "prosperity", isn't it ?"

Wealth or lack of it is a relative term - the poor people in Poland would probably be seen as living like kings to people in many parts of the world.

'Equality' is a myth. People are not equal no matter what the multicultural/socialist industry tell you and as I'm sure you understand. Referring back to Estonia - the quality of life for Estonians has risen immensely since 1989. That goes for Russian Estonians as well. People who saw Estonia during the Soviet period - and have been able to visit there afterwards are stunned by the remarkable , positive change.

Capitalism - for all it's ills - is inherently self-healing. Centralised control systems are not. People are able to work to their capacity, and by generating wealth the whole society wins. Sure, some people make a pile of money - but they also get taxed - and the wealth filters through to the rest of society. e.g. the poorest people in my country would virtually all have food on their table each night, a colour TV or two, a mobile phone and most probably a computer and a car. What works well is a capitalist society with some socialistic aspects - free medicare, free education

"...The Hungarians should be reminded of their role in WWII while the Czechs like Poles implemented brutally thanks to the bad Soviets their century-long dream of expelling the Germans from their territories"

and in Poland's case - taking over large slices of Prussian German territory?. So the Poles also had the same dream? " Polen für die polnisch, Ausländer raus?"

Anyway - getting back to the topic at hand - I wrote in a previous post about Russian tolerance for the manifestly intolerant 'religion of peace'. That tolerance is being continuously tested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJNPSyh4zFk&feature=related

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/crimes/20-11-2009/110627-orthodox_priest-0

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