The Gorbachovian, not Stalinist USRR !!!

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Nov 14, 2009 at 17:55

Hi, my friend !

> Livonia (most of Estonia ) was in existence as a distinct society (a loose confederation of small states having a common Finno-ugric language) around 1200<

The tribes from this loose confederation were as much willing to fight against foreigners as they were ready to raid and loot each other and ally themselves with these foreigners. In such tribal societies the traditional centrifugal forces are usually as strong as the centripetal ones.

> and as Estonia since 1500's though variously occupied by Danes, Swedes, Germans and Russians. Poor buggers - have had a hell of a time maintaining their unique culture and language.<

I'd not be so idealistic about their culture. What Tacitus describes referring to "Fenni" at the end of his "Germania" is hardly worth calling 'culture'. And after the establishemnt of the German rule the Estonians were serfs on a low level of culture - illiterate and uncouth. All higher culture was concentrated in the castles of German aristocracy. Dorpat with its university was almost a purely German city. This changed after the Russians set the Estonian serfs free and the narrow Estonian middle class with its ambitions and ideas emerged in the 19th century. The WWI did the rest.

> I was going to point out that Vyborg was a Swedish castle but didn't want to add too much detail to the discussion. You see the Swedish place names and street names all throughout Finland - especially in Helsinki

Helsinki ...? The Swedes call it simply 'Helsingfors'...There are plenty of Swedish placenames ending with "fors"(=rapids).

"Who in "democracies" cares about what every third non-citizen feels?Russians have been openly discriminated in Estonia ".

> and easily within living memory , non-Russians (i.e. Estonians) had been more than openly discriminated against by Russians in Estonia. <

You emphasis on 'Russian' is a bit disconcerting , I think. With c. 160 nationalities and ethnic groups on their territory the Russians didn't develop and spread the same sort of nationalistic mentality the Estonians with their "one-nation obsession - were imbued with.

Under the Soviets much was invested in Estonia and labour was needed which Estonians couldn't provide. Now do you think the Russians/Ukrainians, Belorus/Uzbeks or the rest should learn Estonian to pelase to the erstwhile lords of the land? By teh way, teh first thing Estonia did in 1991 was to cancel and repudiate all debt to the USSR. Was it also part of the justice you mention below ?

> The situation currently I guess it's a bit of social justice - long term payback. Understandable but unfortunate.

I don't understand what social justice is restored by revitalizing injustice and discrimination whereas I remember that the whole Estonian Ppopular Front movement under Gorbachov was a huge big-mouthed promise to restore justice and respect the Russians whom the Estonians were trying to win on their side for propaganda reasons. But when independence came, Estonian "justice" showed its true , i.e. ugly face..."Under the spreading chestnut tree ..."

> After all - many Russians are not slavic - but Finno-ugric and descendants of Swedes .

Sure! But descent and genes aren't important to Russians while the Estonains are obsessed with them. Hence their relactance to sign the racial equality agreement.

> See 'Treaty of Tartu'.

"Yes, this Treaty of Tartu ...I have seen it. See above!"

nevertheless, Russia reneged on its territorial promises to Estonia.<

I have forgotten what promises Estonia fulfilled ? It's a tricky matter to demand honesty while practising mischief and lying. And frankly, doesn't Estonia have have enough Russians on its territory ? Hasn't she shown how experly she can discriminate them ? Why does she want to get more Russians from the Pskov region ? To impose their discriminatory laws and egg prying and powerful language inspectors on them too ?

> . The Baltic states had no real choice - either be part of the EU - or flounder along as independent tiny countries with tiny economies.

"....Isn't it hubris that makes you tell us we had no other choice? "

> When I referred to the Baltic States - I was not referring to Poland ,Denmark, Germany, Sweden or Finland - but Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

They could have at least tried out neutrality before embracing boot-lickingly their new vassal status towards NATO. It would have been an act of good will towards Russia. But true, there was no good will in these new jingoistic apartheid states.

>yes - the joke is replacing one red passport for another. I agree with you on the EU - the ratification of the Lisbon treaty and talk of EU-wide taxation and more power to the president etc is a dangerous thing.<

Some call it more poignantly - the Western Soviet Union - the EUSSR.

> So , naturally because they share a border with Russia - Rusia appears to become encircled.

"appears"...? Imagine for a moment the US breaks up into 15 sovereign states and Russian troops are stationed in Texas and Alaska while New England is guarded by Russian planes and the Oregon military armed to the teeth with Russian weapons attacks California to get a few square miles of disputed land ... And then under these conditions imagine someone saying "America appears to become encircled..."

> Yes - 'appears' - the EU has no miltary designs on Russia.

re you sure? Have you got ss to the internal archives in Brussels where ur future is being planned for years ahead ? What policy did the EUSSR pursue on the Balkans in fully supporting the jihadist US war there?

> The point I was making was based on the geographic locations of the EU states. The EU via the Baltic states immediately adjoin Russia - so naturally you could say that the EU is 'encircling' Russia. Russia does not adjoin Texas or Alaska or New England.

As a matter of fact Russia adjoins Alaska through the straits of Bering and the Baltic states are the former Russian territory just like Kosovo is a Serbian territitory despite a big US military base and a jihadist pseudo-state there.

"Depending what part of Ukraine you are talking about. Russia has many supporters in Eastern Ukraine while Ukrainian jingoism is worst in the West of the country, i.e. in former Polish Ukraine."

Yes - I'm aware of that - eastern Ukraine is very much pro-Russian.

Have you ever wondered why ?

"..... Why the Albanians have not been officially accused of committing a genocide against the Serbs as they have done it and keep doing it ?..But no! Instead after 9/11 what I could hear was "Why did they do that to us? We were so kind to them. We created two Moslem states for them after all, didn't we? "

yes - that's pretty disgusting - you'd think people would wise up by now.<

Those who have wised up have no power to change anything while those who do, continue on the old path of Allah and Allah's Western friends.

"What sort of "democracy" is it that overnight declares some 30% of its population non-citizens, discriminates them, expels them with heavy-handed or subtle administrative tricks (e.g. a Russian after 1991 could travel abroad freely but could no longer return to his home. No visas had been given to him), makes their life impossible, gives them no right to work and if work is available, then pay is always lower than with the full citizens of pure Estonian descent. Sorry, but my idea of democracy has few common points with this fascist parody."

> Having lived there I can guarantee you it is not as bad as you're making out.

Sure, in Chechnia it was much worse. Yet after promising a national paradise to the Russians in the 80-ies this Estonian paradise seems to hardly resemble the old promised land of freedom and equality.

> The Russians I met there were very friendly people and got on well with native Estonians. Those who weren't drinking vodka in parks were working normal jobs.

...Will you say that all Russians who can't get a job in Estonia to live from are alcoholics? The 2009 Amnesty International Report on Estonia states :

" Linguistic minorities continued to face discrimination in a number of areas, particularly in the fields of employment and education. Migrants were exposed to harassment by state officials and attacks by extremist groups. Criminal investigations into allegations of excessive use of force by law enforcement officials were dismissed. A human rights organization continued to be harassed by the government.

In March, the UN Special Rapporteur on racism, reporting on a visit in September 2007, expressed his concern at the conditions of the Russian-speaking minority. The Rapporteur noted a high level of discrimination particularly in the field of employment, where Russian speakers suffer unemployment rates almost twice as high as among ethnic Estonians".

> The language barrier is one reason for seeming discrimination in the job front. <

Well, making Russian a second official language would improve the situation (wasn't it a promise given and never kept by the Estonian Popular Front in the Gorbachov Era?) and win the hearts and minds of the discriminitaed Russian minority? But no! How could one allow the evil occupiers speak their own language in an Estonian court of justice or administrative bureau ?

What is remarkable is that roughly the same happened after WWI. The German aristocrats were won with generous promises for the Esonian side and later betrayed and gradually stripped of their possessions. Their lands were confiscated and the German minority was oppressed and discriminated.

> If you can't speak Estonian - what good are you in a bank or similar? My Estonian vocab is very limited - so I have no illusions about getting a high-powered job in the Estonian economy.<

I doubt if not being a genius I could ever hope to learn Estonian with its 14 noun cases in both singular and plural and exotic non-Indo-European vocabulary and different anomalies of its grammar. I read once a Finnish grammar and it was impossible for me to remember most intricacies and vowel-and consonant changes etc. Anyway, what a waste of time to memorize all of that if one could devote one's time instead to learning English or German!

But Russian schools are raided regularly by Estonian language inspectors who check if Russian teachers are fluent enough in Estonian to prolong their work permit as Russian teachers ! What a parody! Needless to say, some 98% do fail the exams!

> Similarly in my own country - if you don't speak English - you can forget about getting anywhere in the upper echelons of business. An interesting thing to note is that when Putin was in power - he offered Russians in the Baltics a sum of money and Russian passports if they wanted to move to Russia, - hardly anyone took the offer up.<

How much did he offer? It's remarkable, that teh Estonian jingoists have taken up his idea - and propose " to support re-emigration one should create a special governmental agency and allocate money from the budget". The Russians have aptly baptised this proposal "The Ministry of Expulsion".

"You speak much here of the Estonian perspective, my friend."

> Yes, I've lived there and while not holding myself out to be an expert have some insight into the people and there history and current sentiments. And being a Pole - I can understand you might have some allegiance to Slavic people.>

I don't think my perspective has anything to do with my Slavic origin. I would hardly show any sympathy to Croatians and their fascist ideology. I find simply that what is being done in Estonia and Latvia is unjust, wrong and counterproductive.

"....Let me recall in this bellicose context some of the exploits of the Estonian SS in WWII. Now with the joy to humiliate the former 'occupiers' and play the favourite Western card of the holy underdog, the Estonians have had the cheek to erect monumets to glorify their SS men and desecrate monuments to the Soviets that had died fighting these Estonian fascists."

> There was no 'descration' it was the simple relocation of a bronze statue from Tallinn city to a military cemetery 3kms away. It presented a loss of face to many of the Russians living in Estonia. Not all though.<

As far as I remember those events what happened was that the Estonian fascists erected a monument to the Estonian SS. This provoked the understandable wrath of the US ambassador and the Estonains without many protests dismantled the monument. But they took revenge on the Soviet monument instead. Relegating it to the cemetery was tantamount to exposing it to desecration as the cemetery area is regularly visited by vandals and drunkards.

Desecrating Soviet monuments and glorifying Nazi symbols and past are quite common in Estonia. There is an interesting site that has many details on that .

> Most Estonians do see the Soviet era as a Russian occupation.

And how do they see the Hitler era -1941-1944 ?

Anyway, with their record of century-long occupation these Soviet years after the 20 years of self-rule must seem like 'back to normalcy' era. It's interesting that after WWI they also saw the tsarist era like occupation and the German aristocrats who could trace their pedigree back to the 13th century as 'occupiers'. Had the Germans won in 1918 there would be no Estonia and - cynically speaking- all the great problems small nationalisms cause.

> They were forced to learn Russian, had to tolerate the Russification of their country, Russian speakers got the best jobs etc people shipped to Siberia, the KGB torture chambers in Tallinn etc.

I know their story. The funny thing is that learning Russian was both necessary and popular since the early 18th century when Livonia became part of the Russian empire. It is worth remembering that during the Stalin era ALL , not just the Estonians or Latvians, were persecuted independently of their nationality and Russians suffered probably even more than other nationalities.

It's a wilful historical error to identify the persecutions in the Baltic provinces after 1940-1941 and 1944-1953 as engineered by Russians against the Estonians. The NKVD/KGB officials were bolsheviks coming from many nationalities - Beriya being Georgian. Nationality played no determining role here although the persecutors spoke Russian. Estonian jingoists prefer to see everything in national terms and thus they distort the facts.

> Just guessing - but being a Pole - I'm sure you'd have your own stories in that regard.

Sure, I have. My father was a landless peasant, a village labourer. The Russians had given his grandfather liberty and the Soviets gave him land. I'll always remember what I owe them. if they ahdn't done it, I'd be a serf nowadays.

"Once upon a time the Estonians asked Hitler to defend them. Now they are asking the continuators of Hitler's Balkan policy to do the same. Strange analogies."

> and some other Estonians asked Stalin to protect them from Hitler. For many it was a case of 'the devil you know' <

The funny thing in all of that is that the USSR all those nationalists hate when it died was not Stalin's or even Brezhnev's bad USSR. It was a benign Soviet Union of Michail Gorbachov. But who'd care about chronology and details in this metaphysical tragi-comic hysteria of anti-communism ?

"....I beg your pardon? The events in South Osetia clearly show that it is NATO that by arming and training and giving blanket political support to pseudo-democrats and militarists like Saakashvili created this war. "

> The point I was making is that Russia still has no qualms against invading a sovereign state when it think it can and should.<

Which country did Russia invade? She pushed back the advancing Gerogian aggressor and although she could have occupied all of Georgia (as she should have done in my opinion) she withdrew after defeating the aggressor armed to the teeth and supported by NATO and the venal Western media. And as to qualms you should ask the NATO fascists what pangs of conscience they had bombing Serbia into submission and helping Moslems expel the Serbs from their homes ?

> If Russians in Narva claimed they were being attacked by Estonians - they could use that as an excuse to occupy Estonian territory and 'protect' the 98% Russian populace living in that region of Estonia.<

These methods were actually used by NATO to "protect" their Moslem darlings in Kosovo and Bosnia. As to Russia NATO will probably use the old provisions of the Treaty of Tartu in the Pskov area to "protect" and satisfy their Estonian fascist friends' "just" claims.

" During a short civil war in Tajikistan more Tajiks were killed than during the whole WWII. But you'd feel offended if I called it a tragedy, wouldn't you ?"

> ???. Completely lost me on that one - why would I call it a tragedy ?

Because it was one.

> Other than that of course some innocent people must have suffered needlessly?<

No, because it was a result of the jihad that migrated from Afghanistan (another jihadist monster created by the US) and had the Gorbachovian USSR existed in 1990-ies thsi tragedy and many more would have never happened.

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