Thanks for your expertise but I'd rather prefer Imam Erdogan's judgment "It is not possible for a person who says 'I am a Muslim' to go on and say 'I am secular too.'... Because Allah, the creator of the Muslim, has absolute power and rule!"

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Nov 15, 2009 at 14:15

havas wrote :

>ı am an ordinary middle class Turk.<

It's enough to say you're a Turk. Whether the standard Turkish lies and propaganda are spread by a middle class or lower class or upper class Turk doesn't change in the least their value.

> ı am not an expert in politics or religon.ı only try to think honestly.<

If you do, then either you fail without noticing it or or you notice it but don't do your best. Repeating trite Turkish nonsense and denials of reality while calling it "thinking honestly' is somehow misleading, I presume.

> But you are not an expert either, although you think you are.<

Let's say I am a concerned and interested European. My interest comes from the obvious facts of history and the present unholy agenda both in Turkey and in Eurabia. My interest in Turkey was raised in studying history and is kept alive as I notice that NOWHERE else could I see a more striking and absurd contrast between the reality and its public representation as in Turkey.

> You are a person full of hatered and anger against to people who belong to a different culture as a full block.<

Let's say I call a spade a spade and where I see evil I try not to use euphemisms. It goes without saying that hating evil and exposing lies is the most praiseworthy quality in a human being I am aware of. Will you disagree ?

> you know and speak some correct things but because you have no desire to listen the other side, you can not see the whole picture correctly.<

I see. You have never admitted a wrong thing about Turkey without being first forced by the overwhelming evidence to do so(e.g. " İn Turkey, honour killings are not as common as you think" ) and yet imply that you see "the whole picture" while I am blind. Brilliant and so Turkishly "correct" , indeed!

>you try to formulate that all muslims are evil minded people because they follow the evil ,terrorist ,child raper beduin cult.<

Don't they ? Show me a single Moslem who will blame the so called "prophet" for all his crimes, thefts, lies ? No Moslem does it although the Islamic sources are full of details on what evil person thsi Arab Beduin was!

> this kind of thinking became popular after "bush the great" preiod. 9. 11 and al qaida attacs. <

Nonsense! This kind of thinking was popularized by Moslems' behaviour from the moment they first appeared in history with the caravan raider Muhammed as their chief and his successor gangsters.

May I remind you of the quotes made once in public by Pope Benedict XVI that provoked Moslem mobs all over the world to rage , destroy and burn ? He quoted a Byzantine emperor who himself had spent many years among teh Turks and after his long experience with Islam called a spade a spade...some 1600 years before 11.09.2001 and Osama bin Laden's entering the stage of jihad. You may be ignorant of history but Moslems were always recognized for what they were - evil jihadists , sadists and criminals wearing masks of a Beduin's primitive theology. Just take a look at history to ascertain the important point.

>so you people think that we muslims are a united front that we support each other under all conditions.<

For a Moslem another Moslem is much closer than a kafir. There can be no peace between dar al-Islam and dar al-harb , just a ceasefire.

> saudi wahhabi islam and shii iran islam and secular turkish islam are all the same.<

"Secular islam" is a contradiction in terms like "inncoent murderer". No one put it better than Imam Erdogan in person in his memorable speech : "You cannot be both secular and a Muslim! You will either be a Muslim, or secular! When both are together, they create reverse magnetism [i.e. they repel one another]. For them to exist together is not a possibility! Therefore, it is not possible for a person who says 'I am a Muslim' to go on and say 'I am secular too.' And why is that? Because Allah, the creator of the Muslim, has absolute power and rule!"

> and most of you know who created this so called islamic terrorists ,but because you people are over protective of your cultures,racists and imperialists ,you meneged to create an imaginary 1,5 billion people evil enemy now. <

It is 1400 years of uncessant Islamic aggression, jihad, gazavat, slave hunting, war on us gavurlar/kafirs that have created all those terrorists of today who are hankering for the conquests and robberies of our lands, for destroying our cultures, for reduciing us to slaves of Moslem pashas and beys or for forcibly converting us into the followers of their Satanic death cult.

> your imperialist kingdom needed this politics economicly and strategicly.<

It would be a much a happier world without a single Moslem wolf wearing sheep's clothing left to swoop on this fragile world.

> well ı tell you honestly. ı admire many things west has.mainly technology,human rights and ability to live a better orginised social lifes. <

For saying similar things in public your Turkic brother from Azerbaijan Rafiq Tagi got a death fatwa from the angered Moslem clergy. He absolutely correctly described "Europe as superior to the Middle East" and as a response to this Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Fazel Lankarani issued a death fatwa against him and his publishers. "Earlier, an Iranian cleric had offered his house as a reward to anyone who killed the Azeri writer." Sweet Islam doesn't like those who ' admire many things west has'.

> ı respect israeli and the jews struggle to survive.

And do you realize who is menacing the survival of Israel ? Not the Kurds !

> ı am sorry for the gone armenian and greek and jews of turkey, <

"Gone"? Your grandparents tortured and sadistically murdered them and you call it "gone"! Turkish euphemisms don't look much better than blank denials.

> ı also think we muslims believe to the same god with christians and jews. <

Wrong!!! If they did, then why did you Moslems force them to embrace Islam and worship Allah? After all they had already worshipped the same god as your Allah and as they did it earlier than the Arabs and Turks , then the Arabs and Turks should have come back to worship Jehova and Jesus instead!

>ı believe the final day ı will be judged for the things ı did in this life.

And what will you say to Allah when he asks you "And what did you do, Havas, to pormote jihad, the aggressive Moslem holy war which Moslems are ordained by Me Allah to wage against the bad kafirs?"

> ı dont need to investigate our holly book continuously.<

So now you make the virtue of ignorance while some time ago you told me I don't know anything about Islam. Remarkable flexibility of logic and approach on your part!

> because logic is very simple. ı believe, ı try to be good man, ı try not to commit big sins and ı thank to all conditions.<

Perhaps you mean ""Islamically good man "? When a Moslem says "good" I feel he means something quite different from what a gavur /kafir like myself means. On many occasions I have experienced how misleading Moslem semantics is and it's essential to achieve the Moslem scheme of deceiving us kafirs on their real intent.

> but these dont mean that ı hate arabs or ı dont feel sorry for palestein or ım ashamed of islam.<

Why should you ? It would expose you to too many dangers and tempations. Doubters in Islam have a very hard time and usually don't survive long. Islam kills skepticism by killing skeptics.

> we are good hearted people, we help each other, we like foreigners ,our family values are very high.<

Whatever you mean, I'd be curious how you deal with foreigners that happen to know a bit more about Turkey and are imprudent enough to ask inconvenient questions or expose your hypocrisy and conformism ? E.g. what do you think ? How long would I stay alive or free in Turkey if I kept saying things in public which I have written to you and other Turks and kafirs on Turkey on this and other forums? ...I'll appreciate your answer and thank you in advance for it !

> ı love and support my mother father and sister for life time.<

Isn't it also because the Quran says you should do that ?

> ı am not defending everything about turkey, turks or islam.<

Be careful lest you be denounced to the police ( the Internet is strictly surveilled in Turkey) and they charge you woth "denigration of Turkishness'. The rules of the game are clear enough, aren't they?

> There are also many things wrong.especially womens position in some areas is even worse than saudi arabia and iran.

But still it's better than , say, in the 'golden' age of the Ottoman misrule when a woman cost 40 cents on the nearest slave and wife market, isn't it ?

> but the reason is economic. men prefer men at work. women are paid much less, first, women are fired from jobs, men are jealous and --usually after heavily drinking-smacks their wifes.

Some may recite 4.34 punching their wives' head. Allah is merciful and beneficient , isn't he?

> women obey their husbands and suffer a life time misearable life because they cant find a job and in society they will be seen no good woman living as a single person after divorce. <

That would cast a shadow of doubt on the holy Islamic ummah and expose its members to the vitriolic criticism of the Western women who are seen by Turks as wh...s and sluts and so infinitely inferior to the Moslem female slaves they call their 'wives'. I have heard many women tell nasty stories of being vulgarly accosted and abused verbally by Turks and other Moslems. Men in the West also accost women but never show that religiously motivated contempt to women as chattle as Moslems do.

> things like this, not that kuran orders to smack wifes. only in the rural parts and in eastern parts maybe and only maybe wrong understanding of kuran may have the raeson for the women abuses.<

Or perhaps the right understanding while you whitewash your countrymen as usual. After 80 years of 'equal' rights and progressive laws on paper it's instructive to take a look at the traditionally nasty Turkish reality on the ground.

> selling girls and children to elder men was in the past much more common. with these new laws ı am quite sure that this will completely finish .

No! It will be more hidden and harder to track and will persist as everything does in Turkey despite the official tale of 'porgress', 'modernity' and 'change' sold to the West. These are all but masks behind which the old ugly Ottoman monster is hiding its toothless grin.

> this is a new law --4 years ago--and newspapers tvs are informing people that underage sex or merriage is punished with very long term prison.<

The crime will be punished if it is discovered . But will it ever be ? Those who might be willing to help disclose this child marriage or abuse will have to fear they will be punished in turn by the relatives of the persons imprisoned and hence nothing will happen as nobody will risk his or her head. Another law existing on paper to mislead the naive Western human rights activists.

> now, for a while,leave your paronia and just assume that ı have no plans to bomb christian lands and ı dont want to see all the world became muslims.<

But what is dar al-harb good for then, Moslem ? What's wrong about fighting the kafirs in the path of Allah , looting their property, enslaving them ? It's all Mohammed's career was about after all. He did it, he told the Moslems to do the same and to conquer the infidels' lands. And now you pop up here and tell me the comedy of Moslem tolerance. Turkey is the best example of how a country on the way to the West becomes totally Islamic, annihilates or expels all things un-Islamic and then pretends to be 'modrate', 'secular' , 'tolerant' and a paragon to the rest of dar al-Islam! What a nasty parody!

> and assume that great great majority of the muslims only think about living decent lifes with good economic standards. <

That's the problem. The lousy work ethics, endemic corruption, incurable mismanagement reinforced by the eroding and demoralizing influence of Islam on everything and first of all degenrating the mind by its dull and silly Islamic taboos and dogmas make it virtually impossible to get these good economic standards at all...And the Moslem mind thinks "All things belong to Allah and kafirs have legally nothing and yet enjoy such a high standards of living while Allah's slaves are living below the poverty line..." And the Moslem mind is reminded of jihad as a way to remedy the defects and evils created by Islam and nothing else but Islam.

> so turks in germany live there for these reasons not to make all germans change their religon to islam.

Last year during my trip to Germany a German told me roughly so "What the Turks have done to the Armenians they will do to us too... They don't integrate, follow their savage customs and despise us.They fill German prisons and openly threaten and provoke us. When things deteriorate economically here, you will see what sort of "cultural wealth" they will are for this country !"

> ı wonder can you understand this.this way you can be a better human.<

You can be a better spy and agent in Germany this way. Now thanks to Turkey's Fifth there, Germany has become the central field for espionage, sabotage and subversive activities of the Turkish Secret Service (MIT) harming Germany and targeting Turkish and Kurdish dissenters and critics, Greek and Armenian institutions and persons and anyone who tries to open the eyes of the European public on the evil that is called Turkey. The funny thing is that in many cases the Turks through their former acquaintances from the time of the cold war can rely on information provided by their Western colleagues.

> ı dont like discussing verses in Kuran .<

Are you afraid of exposing your bogus religion to the light of rationalism and ridicule? Sweet Islam severely punishes its critics.

> but it is not like you say. you only read one part. read the rest and before, you will see that it is not as you claim.<

I don't claim it. It's a common knowledge how women are treated in Islam and where this monstrosity of wife beating and abuse comes from. It all does coem from Islam which is evil and it does produce the results which you are ashamed of facing , Moslem.

> lets look at Nisa sure 4.34

http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/adifficultverse.html

"Men are qawwamun in relation to women, according to what God has favored some over others and according to what they spend from their wealth. Righteous women are qanitat, guarding the unseen according to what God has guarded. Those [women] whose nushuz you fear, admonish them, and abandon them in bed, and strike them. If they obey you, do not pursue a strategy against them. Indeed, God is Exalted, Great."

well, ı dont understand what you understand here.<

Replace the arabic words with the corresponding Turkish/English ones (see my quote for help), wake from the torpor imposed by Islam on your brain and ponder over the meaning of 'strike' and rather 'beat' in relations between a man and a woman and follow Allah's unfinished ayat : "But if they don't odey you ...?" and you'll understand ... or perhaps you are right and you will not understand. Moslems are not rational beings after all, so... (finish my ayat to get what I mean).

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".