one extreme to the other

Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Nov 20, 2009 at 02:52

Hi Ianus

".As far as I understand it the Estonians don't seem to be very good at making subtler distinctions. Anything that comes from the East and speaks Russian is Russian for them. In this respect they strongly resemble the Westerners."

they are not an uneducated people and do understand that the ex-Soviet citizens in their midst are also tartars, Ukrainians and even kazahks - though most are Russian.

"Under the Soviets much was invested in Estonia and labour was needed which Estonians couldn't provide If your point was to expose Russia's barbarity, then may I draw your attention to the fact that thanks to the Russian military bases on the beautiful Estonian islands and ban on construction and enclosures the unique wild life there was preserved intact which is now endangered by wild construction activities after dismantling the bases ?"

Do you mean Paldiski - the main base? There's not much construction around there now at all - and though there was some development - it is mostly around Tallinn. Estonians are very aware of the beauty of their natural environment - it is a very scenic country. That it is still pristine in most areas is not due to the generosity of the Russians. More it's a testament to the torpor induced inthe economy by the communist system. And in this case it is a good thin. Because had it been a capitalist country in the 60's, 70's and 80's - it would probably be overdeveloped and greater damage done to the environment.. It's been left in a 'default' state by communism. This gives them a chance I think to develop their natural resources in a more conscious and environmentally harmonious way.

"Anyway,I'd ask your humanist-minded Estonian friends how they 'cared' for the monuments and graves of the German or Russian aristocrats they had betrayed and abused after concluding the infamous Treaty of Tartu with Lenin –Estonia's new friend and now so widely hated fiend? "

None of my humanist minded Estonian friends had anything to do with that.

"When I say 'investment' I mean e.g. all the energy sector, cotton factories, metal manufacturing, the new port in Tallin etc. etc. which were all Soviet investments "

The new port in Tallinn is 100% paid for by Estonians. I don't know when you were last there - but in the last 10 years the change at Sadam has been immense. But speaking of the harbor - one of the first things you see when coming by boat from helsinki are the acreages of ugly soviet style flats at Lasname - a real eyesore - probably one of highest concentrations of high rises outside of Hong Kong I've ever seen. And when you get of the boat - you walk through the LinnaHall - the largest concrete bunker mostrosity one could ever see. I don't car who built it . It was no 'gift'.

which relied heavily on the huge Soviet market both of raw materials and consumers. Even now the Estonians with no memory holes may remember that the Russian fuel was much cheaper once upon a time."

A lot of their fuel comes from the oil shales in the Narva region - which is Estonian territory.

Of course, with Russain being the language of international friendship and cooperation - the Russians would politely request that Estonians learn to speak Russian.<

"I don't know what stories Estonians told you. But if you are inquisitive and curious enough you'll find out on your own that under the bad 'totalitarian' Soviets Estonia had two official languages – Estonian and Russian. "

That is correct - but not by the direct request of the native population.

"I don't understand what social justice is restored by revitalizing injustice and discrimination whereas I

..

It's no euphemism , it's a caricature. "Payback" ? It works here as long as you uphold Russian 'collective guilt" – a notion known from the early medieval and barbarian legal systems. You first construe a collective guilt – the Soviet occupation for which you insidiously blame all the Russians in Estonia for it and then not finding any longer Stalin, Berya etc. and other real culprits you punish the imaginary collective "culprits" , i.e. any Russian who happens to be living within your jurisdiction. You "pay back" the wrong people ! I'll spare you my euphemism for it."

So that would be the same thing as attributing collective guilt onto the Estonians for 'crimes' real or imagined against the Russians wouldn't it?

"I do assure you I know this story. This was routinely done to many more groups and nationalities. The Estonians were not so special. The Russian civil war exterminated the Russian officers, the cosacks, the priests, the intelligentsia. The collectivization of agriculture annihilated the Russian peasants. The Great Stalinist Terror decimated the army, the administration, the science... This all happened before and afterwards in Stalin's paradise."

You forgot to include the infamous Katyn massacre - where the Soviets blamed the Nazis for murdering Poles - and only admitted guilt in the 90's wasn't it? And the victims were fellow Slavs.

"I repeat. The conclusion you draw following your Estonian friends' tale is however a non-sequitur. How can you punish Gorbachov and the Russians in 1991 for what their fathers did ( rather or didn't do) ? "

Equally - how can you blame Estonians now for what their fathers did or didn't do?

"Was it correct to stygmatize as a non-citizen and "occupier" any Russian child or youngster because they happened not to belong to the happy Estonian race? The Estonians wanted to re-create their alleged pre-war paradise but the way they have chosen leads there through the swamps and quicksands of misfortune and discrimination of non-Estonians."

I was disappointed to hear many Russians make such statements as 'our soldiers will once again wash their feet in the baltic' when the 'Bronze Soldier' riots occurred. Sure - they were woud up with vodka but the sentiment was palpable.

sadly, I think that may well be the case. A bunch of power hungry politicians catering to the lowest common denominator.You can see quite often graffiti in our cities saying "Yesterday Moscow, today Brussels !".

The graffitists are right - now the EU wants its seat at the UN - because - Lisbon was raified. It wasn't ratified it was pushed through under duress and in an atmosphere of fear and retribution unless Brussel's way was followed. .

> Surely you don't think then that these cultures somehow 'belong' to Russia - and should not have been given the chance to carve out their own future?

"Well, if Hussein Obama 'reverts' openly to Islam, Alaska may feel tempted to declare independence from Islamized America. Who knows how the grave-diggers of the USSR will end themselves ? They are so many willing to play the role of the gravediggers and ghouls of the West."

I could not call Estonians 'eastern' at all - they are more like Swedes and Finns in so many ways - and have a very Western mentality. They just happen to have had a verty unfortunate geopgraphical location.

> Having lived there I can guarantee you it is not as bad as you're making out.

"....Sure, in Chechnia it was much worse. Yet after promising a national paradise to the Russians in the 80-ies this Estonian paradise seems to hardly resemble the old promised land of freedom and equality."

Well - it's certainly no soviet state if that's the point you're making - where equality was enforced.

"How do you mean : Russians are occupiers and "our Russians" must sound like 'our occupiers", needn't it ?"

Many estonians realise the predicament 'their ' Russians are in. They know they are not 'Russian' enough to go back to Russia - many can but do not don't want to go back to Russia - and many are married to Estonians etc.

> The Russians I met there were very friendly people and got on well with native Estonians. Those who weren't drinking vodka in parks were working normal jobs.

...Will you say that all Russians who can't get a job in Estonia to live from are alcoholics?

I can't draw that conclusion. I can state I did observe many (more than 50) highly intoxicated Russian-speaking people who were drinking vodka in parks in the daytime. But I also saw and met many Russians who were not drinking and holding down regular jobs.

The crucial question is "Did you see any Russians who were not drinking and yet remained unemployed ? "

Actually I met some who were self-employed and did not drink - they were quite happy.

"What is remarkable is that roughly the same happened after WWI. The German aristocrats were won with generous promises for the Esonian side and later betrayed and gradually stripped of their possessions. Their lands were confiscated and the German minority was oppressed and discriminated."

Yet Baltic German families still exist and are not discriminated against.

Well at least you can say the Estonians were fairminded in their revenge.

"Fairminded" ? Another of your euphemisms, my friend? They first betrayed Yudenich and concluded a perfidious treaty with Lenin and now they sermon unctuously on the 'sanctity' of this treaty basing their claims on it! They abused the Germans, dispossessed them and persecuted them and now pretend to care so much for their Germans! They fawned the local Russians during the days of the Estonian Popular Front and betrayed them as well the very day they got what they had been hankering for! And you call it 'fair-minded'!

Fair in the sense of No favourites - that they treat equally badly those people who treated them badly in the past. But no Russians are shot at or incarcerated for no reason - they are still very much recognised as fellow human beings . Unlike the way the more devoted of the Islamic brethren around the world treat their close neighbours (bringing it back on topic)

It's the past the Estonians ,however, can't identify themselves with. They want a myth of at least a 1000 year-old Estonia and what they see around is German mansions and relics and sad proofs that all of that 'myth' is not even 100 years old, i.e. it is too young to dupe the skeptics and hypnotize the youth. All that 'independence' happened in 1917-1918 with the advance of the foreign (German) troops of occupation which were too few to occupy the land and yet numerous enough to produce through their grace or rather a nessity a new statelet - Estonia. But this statelet has been stained from the moment of its birth until now. "

German influence on Estonia was far more positive than Soviet Russian influence.

"I wonder what sort of beauty would you relish in if one day the Aborigines declared independence of the part of Australia you're living in, made you a non-citizen and forced you to learn one of their dialects prohibiting to use Enlish in courts, shops , hospitals and otehr public places ?"

Russians are not prohibited from using their language in Estonia. You must know they have their own TV channels, radio stations and political parties. If you didn't know that - you now know. What most people fail to realise about the 350-500,000 aboriginals living at the time of white settlement - was that they had over 200 tribes and language groups (in a country the size of Europe) . They were warring amongst themselves as much as they were with the new arrivals. They were a pre-technological, noadic society and the circumstaces you posited could never occur. There were no and would be hospitals , courts , shops etc for them to demand the speaking of any of the 200 aboriginal languages or dialects in. No roads to drive on, no railways etc etc In fact no wheels of any kind.

"I agree that exotic languages like Estonian are curious and even charming but forcing people to learn them, blackmail and raid foreign institutions with Estonian language inspectors to extort the proficiency performance from non-natives under pain of depriving them of their jobs and dubious citizenship is the surest way to make this exotic language a curse and a joke to the civilized world."

I guess it can seem that way - but for a culture that can trace its roots back 9,000 years to the mesolithic period - I see their point. They want to hang onto what they have.

"But Russian schools are raided regularly by Estonian language inspectors who check if Russian teachers are fluent enough in Estonian to prolong their work permit as Russian teachers ! What a parody! Needless to say, some 98% do fail the exams!"

There you go - Russian schools. Why do they need Russian schools. And would Russians allow Estonian schools say in the Mari Republic (fellow Finno-ugrics)? Would Russian inspectors make sure the Estonians in such a hypothetical school knew Russian? (Hint - It's a rhetorical question)

If I was going to move to Estonia - I would make sure I spent the time to learn the language. I would be subject to the same language requirements as an Russian, no more , no less. I understand that they have a unique culture - and culture is underpinned by language. They want to protect it - that's their business. It's their country.

"...All would sound nice were it not for a few details, my friend. a/ Estonian is not a language like any other- it's much too difficult to demand from non-natives (particularly the older ones) to achieve a level necessary for intelligent communication. b/ Given the fact that every third inhabitant of Estonia (technically a non-citizen) doesn't speak or understand this exotic language , an alternative language of communication should be found."

It's not THAT hard - I picked up enough in 8 months to get what I wanted in shops and get my point across to people. And I'm certainly not the world's best linguist.

"...Under the bad Soviets two languages were official in Estonia. Until 1885 it was only German. But I am not naive. I know how skilfully language is used not to integrate but to down and humiliate the Russian minority."

Oh, you mean in the same way Russian language dexterity was a requirement in Estonia in the Soviet years between 1947 and 1989?

"The Estonians tell the fairy tale of "protecting" their culture by imposing oppressive linguistic rules but what sort of danger would their culture or country run by allowing people who speak another language in private to use it in public ? "

YOu don't seem to get it - they DO use it in public. In fact - the first words I heard spoken after arriving in Estonia (apart from the Customs & immigration people) were a large group of schoolkids and their teachers - all taling Russian excitedly on top of the aforementioned LinnaHall. You hear Russian spoken all over the place.

"What sort of 'unique culture' is it that needs this ridiculous linguistic oppression, nay terror to survive and thrive ?"

It really is not like that at all.

"How much did he offer?

From memory about $2k

What would you do if you were a Russian in Estonia and the sum were offered to you ?

I would of course realise how vastly better off I was remaining in Estonia in so many ways - especially financially. That's why I wouldn't take it up. I'd find $2k a little insulting - but that's because I know how little $2k actually is. Russians in Estonia are probably aware how isulting it would be. $30K and a free apartment in St.Petersburg and I might think about it.

> It's remarkable, that teh Estonian jingoists have taken up his idea - and propose " to support re-emigration one should create a special governmental agency and allocate money from the budget". The Russians have aptly baptised this proposal "The Ministry of Expulsion".

The Danes are now doing the same thing aren't they - not with Russians though.So it isn't a bad policy in all cases.

.......All depends on whom you are going to get rid of.

And now I hear of another EU country with the same bright idea - Holland I think - or was it Italy - maybe even Ireland?

"The Estonians will regret one day what they have been doing now with the Russians when a few refugee camps for "poor Palestinians", "miserable Aghans", or other 'displaced Moslems' are established in Estonia in accordance with the 'wise' EU-wide policy on refugee quotas and when the Estonian Moslems at large start their usual business of establishing the Islamic Third World Order in the country. "

I really can't see it. Estonians and irish are similar in many ways - because they both are proudly independent people - with a unique culture and language - who have been occupied by aggressive neighbours. We see evidence today of Ireland's real attitude to the death cult/political system which masquerades as a religion - creeping into their society. Tolerance extends only so far.

"The Russians share the same fundamental values as Estonians and want no sharia in Estonia. Moslems will not have such scruples."

Ianus , I totally agree with you. The differences are minute when compared to the gulf between Russian/Estonian mentaility and islam. That's why Islam will never succeed in these regions no matter how hard they might wish it to. In that sense Russia is a bright light for the world.

> My perception of Russians' life in Estonia (2005) was that they weren't having such a bad time - many own companies and many have their own houses and lots of flash cars. The economy then was doing very well - of course there has been a downturn but the fact is Russians there would still rather live in Estonia than Russia.

And don't you know where all this wealth comes from? Smuggling goods from Russia has assumed exorbitant proportins –cigarettes, alcohol, copper, nickel, works of art, drugs, illegal immigrants ."

I know they are into a lot of scams. Just anecdotally - I was astonished at the amount of blatantly pirated high-value computer software , music CD's etc I saw at Russian markets. Also - lots of collectibles such as 18th century furniture, which obviously came from Russia. aslso Russian Ikons, samovars etc etc - memorabillia from WW2 - eg. TotenKopf rings and corroded belt buckles etc. Quite fascinating.

.". A quote from an older analysis will hopefully illustrate what I mean : "In the first nine months of 1994, $45 million worth of nonferrous metals passed over the border from Russia to Estonia-- most of it illegally--and out to the West. Tiny Estonia is now one of the world's largest exporters of nonferrous metals, even though it produces none.""

yes - I've also heard stories where they found out why some workers in junkyards in Estonian were getting sick was because some fo the scrap was radioacive and came from de-commissioned nuclear establishments. That was 10 years ago - so I'm sure they're tightening up now they are part of the EU nanny state.

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