For Nura, countering your points

Submitted by Straight_Talk_Luigi (United States), Jun 25, 2008 at 21:30

I will be happy to!!! One of the classes I took for my degree in psychology dealt with the very issue. The U.S. beuru of Justice has some very interesting statics. It is estimated that 1 in 6 women will be raped or a victim of sexual assault within their lifetime. The most recent calculation for rape in this country was in 2006. It was estimated that 272,350 sexual assaults/rape occurred in this year only!! That is a rape every 2 minutes in this country!

The USA also has over 320 million people here, so the number will of course be larger.

Oh, and you forgot to mention: We don't punish the victim.

Interesting report on the crime from one the Maghreb nations.

Exactly what teachings are those? For you to make such a great assertion you need provide evidence. Islam does not teach rape what are you talking about?

Gladly! Here's one example from sharia law

It's really not a "great" assertion, but a common one in Sweden and Norway

The Christianity teaches rape and pedophilia? If you look at Christian history you will have MANY examples of both.

If I look at the history of ANY religion, I could find at least one example for each, I'm sure. Pedophilia, huh? So what's up with this Muslim from Yemen marrying an eight-year-old? Just keeping with Mohammedian tradition, I guess.

We need not go into that now, I am not trying to offend people.

Yeah, right. You're goal is to make me angry, remember? Good luck!

But if you think really hard I'm sure you will come up with something. Muslim religious leaders are not exactly in the news for this type of behavior.

Just because it's not on the news, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Since we are talking about reported rape, I think that you should know that 60% of rapes go unreported in this country (U.S. Department of Justice.2005 National Crime Victimization Study. 2005)!!! I wonder why considering women in this country does not have to worry being stoned to death?

Yeah, cause it's her fault, right? She doesn't have to worry about stoning because we are modern nation. I'm well aware that many rapes in the USA aren't reported. A lot of times, it's because the woman doesn't want the man to get into trouble, I would guess.

In Muslim lands, it wouldn't matter because 1) They punish the victim, not the rapist and 2) Many of the women who are raped are non-Muslim. That's why the EU has a rape epidemic from Muslims. They probably just do the same thing in their home country and it isn't reported as a crime because they don't think it's a crime! They think the women DESERVE it for not wearing the veil or for converting to Christianity.

Maybe there other psychological/social factors that cause women to not report, as we see here in this country

Yes, there are, but the reasons for NOT reporting in Muslim nations are even more understandable, unfortunately.

"In Iran, you'd be stoned for adultery and your male rapist would go free."

Stoning to death, another tired argument.

This is why Muslim nations should STOP IT, Nura! Until then, be prepared to hear ALL about it!

When was the last time a person was stoned in the Muslim world?

At least in 2005

When you get that number then figure out how often that had happened in the last century!

From what I can tell, just in Muslim lands. See here: Nigeria, Iraq, Iran. Changing the ISLAMIC penal code.

For your information, Stoning goes way back. The God of Abraham ordered it for various sins in the of testament such as hitting your parents, fornication, adultery, bestiality ect. All of these acts were punishable by death and more than a few were punished by stoning. Check Exodus for further proof.

I am very familiar with Exodus, and the reason why God was so strict was because the Israelities had no social infrastructure. Jesus removed this teaching and said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

As far as rapist going free in Pakistan, you should know the 15 out of 16 rapists go free in this country!! Again check statistics. Again, why is there such a strong comparison for these "underdeveloped nation"? We should be doing much better than them, right?

So, due the inept American justice system, Pakistani rapists should go free? That's your logic from your psychological degree? I sure wouldn't want to see you as a patient!

We are doing better, because we have safe areas and areas that are not so safe. Most developing countries have crime all over.

The statistics you refer to are an estimate documented in wikipedia based off of mathematical extrapolation, not on hard numbers. You're just rewording the idea that 1 in 16 rapists are supposedly convicted and sentenced, but you are a master of manipulating facts and stats to advance Islam.

So conservative are a stronger party? It was conservatives who supported slavery in this country.

I guess, but they were all democrats. It took republicans to free the slaves.

In terms of national defense, conservatives are the stronger party, and that's why you're defending democrats.

Conservatives supports the war in Iraq and the support of the Zionist state of Israel.

Liberal evangelicals support Israel and so do Jews. These folks vote DEMOCRAT.

Conservatives would love to bring back the old days where Christians were burning would be witches again.

Nura, no one wants to bring back the witch trials, least not any one I know. However, some Muslims, like the ones in CAIR, want sharia law here.

For your information I am a Muslim who supports neither. I support and believe in Islam that's it that's all.

Don't be offended if I say I'm not convinced.

As Muslims we should support whoever is right regardless of religious and political views.

As much as you'd like to speak for other Muslims, Nura, you don't. Quite frankly, I find that hard to beleive with what you've been saying. And to be honest, you sound like bin-laden when you do that. Heck, who knows? Maybe to you, that's a compliment.

Both sides are filled with Western extremists.

Unfortunately, Muslims have our extremists beat. 11,000+ terror attacks since 9-11 in the name of God. allah akkbar indeed.

Really, I think that the country was destroyed by the British the last time I checked. How do you think dictators get into power?

You're going to blame the UK, one of the oldest democracies in the world, for Iraq's problems? How long ago was that? You're telling me that Islam had nothing to do with it?

Classic.

That is what the West does.

It's what sharia law does.

They destroy Nations and then put in Dictators that will serve their interest. The entire Islamic State was dismantled by the British and separated into the countries that we see today.

The Islamic State WAS an expansionist dictatorship. It's just the UK (and later the USA) literally ran ahead of EVERYONE in terms of power. They beat the Islamic Caliphate and countless other little brutal regimes at their own game.

That, Nura, has been the trend in global power ever since civilization was founded, and it will keep changing. You cannot complain about one expansionist (the UK) and justify another (the Caliphate).

You sound like a true ... Do you know many people have been killed in Iraq? Hundreds of thousands. We would assume that these people had families, mothers,sisters,brothers ect. How well could YOU go on after someone you loved was killed a violent death?

Good for you, except you're not an Iraqi, and they weren't free under Saddam. My roommate was an Iraqi, and he said the USA was doing good in Iraq.

Uh-oh. I guess I'm NOT the one who's angry after all :) Looks like you got an edit!

First of all, if you are referring to the Iraq debacle, hundreds of thousands have not died. Nearly 50,000 to 60,000 have died courtesy of Islamic terrorists.

I actually represented my UN agency at the initial Oil for Food Program hearing. Over 1 MILLION Iraqis died, most of them children, from the oil for food scandal

They would rather have clean water, peace and security which the masses of them had under Saddam. It is the quality of life that people want regardless of religion.

Is this what they told you at the mosque?

Tell that to the Marsh Arabs, the Kurds, and the Shiites and Basra. Those WMD's that "didn't" exist were used to kill hundreds of thousands of Kurds, a friend of mine at the UN showed me GIS maps the southern marshlands that were being drained and suffering insurmountable ecological damage due to Saddam draining them.

Why would he do that, being such a "great" leader and all?

To eliminate the Marsh Arab culture!

You are right though, that Christians DID get better treatment under Saddam, and he did keep the terrorists away. But Iraq secure and peaceful? Ha ha. Not on your life, Nura!

And then there is Uday and Kusay, who went around in their little van and raped women. How would you like it if the Bush Twins did that to you? Or do Uday and Kusay get a free pass because they are Sunni Muslim?

A good friend of mine died just last year, and I know of Americans who went to TEN funerals or more on 9-11, thanks to orthodox Islam. Make sure you include that in your precious da'wah, and no I'm not angry.

My children means more than this PERCEPTION of freedom. I'm sure they would rather have their families back, alive than a flawed government that has supported Shia militias.

I'm going to assume that you are Sunni. Supporting shia militias will get us nowhere. They are clearly linked to Iran, which wants control over the entire area. That's one BIG reason why so many people in Iraq are dying, yet most people don't have the wit to see it.

I have no doubt that the families would love to have their loved ones back.

So would the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs and the families of USA soldiers who only want to make life better for Iraqis.

"Slavery from Africa was started by Muslims, and remember, we weren't a country until 1776. Slavery was outlawed less than a 100 years later.
Really!! Do you think youre talking to an idiot? How can you make such a statement of blatant inaccuracy?

If I am, you'd be the first one on here.......so, no, I don't think you're an idiot, and I guess you're right, I made an error more or less along the lines of semantics.

At least I don't blog in stenographic shorthand...:P

My response:

Slavery in Africa existed WAY BEFORE ISLAM. In fact, didn't ancient Greece and Rome practice slavery? Most of the inhabitants of Rome were slaves.

Yet, just like Christians, Muslims couldn't resist it and still practice it today.

A LARGE PORTION of the Roman EMPIRE were slaves, yes, but they took slaves from everywhere and religion, race and culture had nothing to do with it. I would hypothesize that gender and physical strength did.

Despite this fact, the slavery that was practiced by this country is known to be one of the harshest and most brutal examples of slavery in History!!!

FYI: History isn't a proper noun :)

Any kind of slavery is harsh, although I question you're line of thinking to a degree because the slaves needed to be in good working condition in order to be useful. They were an investment, you know.

Still, that is inexcusable.

So, why do Muslim nations still practice slavery today then?

Because when Mohammed and his followers wrote the Qu'ran, it was too much of a burden to leave it out. Less people would have become Muslim if they knew they would lose their slaves.

Although Africans practiced "slavery", they were more like the indentured servants in England.

Pfffffftttt! You're got another thing coming if you think that indentured servitude meant fair labor!

I take it you're talking about the area of what is now modern day Benin. Having a slave as a confidant (spy) or a solider as opposed to JUST a crop-gatherer, means they are expendable bodies that do not have to be paid to serve. The British did this do American slaves during the Revolutionary War, so it wasn't just the Africans.

They were not abused and tortured like here in the U.S.

I beg to differ. Slaves have been abused in every society and slavery itself is an abuse. They were probably treated better in the USA than anywhere else because Americans mostly BOUGHT slaves! They didn't go around and round them up little cattle like the Romans, Greeks, Saudis, Persians and Europeans did! They BOUGHT them, so you know what that means?

An INVESTMENT! They were businessmen! Good businessmen don't beat their assests to death, especially when they pay for them!

That's the difference, but slavery is just an insult to one's humanity no matter what.

Slavery was usually the result of warring Kingdoms their form of POWs.

That's how it got started.

In Islam Slaves had rights!! They were not to be hit, the owners were to help them if there was too much work, there were encouraged to be freed by Mohammed, they were to have food and clothing as their masters.

Grossly different for the institution of slavery by Europeans which was unknown to these people.

Naturally, you'll do whatever you can do to discredit non-Muslim slavery while justifying Muslim slavery, which is why you quoted Mohammed earlier.

Slaves in every society at some point in time have been abused. Why? Because it's easy.

Your claim about the European slavery are shaped by more accurate records. Other empires lacked this, and that's why we rely on archaelogical evidence. So, if you're going to sit here and tell me that a slave was treated better by Persians or Muslims than by Europeans, it shows a clear bias and a lack of understanding of how historical data is gathered.

It is by sheer human nature that slaves would be abused. Laws or no laws, Islam is no exception, even today with it's role in African slavery and the sex trade.

Who cares if the country didn't become one until after the civil war! What does that prove?

Since the USA was never an Islamic country nor will ever be an Islamic country (or any religious country for that matter), I know that this fact alone shapes your view.

The country was one before the civil war and one after. There is nothing to prove. It's just a well-known fact.

Really? The last documented lynching in this country was in 1968!! T o add the killing of James Byrd in 1998 where he was dragged by a truck with a chain around his neck by three white men has been argued to be a modern day account of lynching.

Nice try, but that still doesn't make Islamic nations better than America. You're reports are 10 and 40 years old, respectively. It's always interesting how Muslims on here have to talk about incidents in the past to show the West how "bad" we all are and that makes violent actions on their part okay. Like it's some contest to see who has the better group of people based on how many we can kill, enslave or subjugate.

You want to talk about the oppression of Blacks? Look at the Sudan. Over 400,000 dead because of genocide by Muslims. Rape, robbery, all too common and done by Arabs. No whites, no Hispanics. All Arab Sudanese doing the looting, raping and killing, and all of them are Muslims.

Why you are checking amnesty International, why don't you check the reports of Israel's brutality against the Palestinians.

And while you're telling me about how Islam is freedom, be sure and look at reports as to why Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and how the Israeli government actually pays for mosques to be built.

I really don't see Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya or any other Islamic country funding buildings for other religions. Instead, they are too busy building mosques in Europe in a bid for an Islamic take-over there.

I am well aware of the injustices committed against Palestinians, and I don't need Amnesty to tell me about that. I know about the gross UN violations. I gave a speech at university 4 years ago on why America should stop giving aid to Israel for reasons OTHER than Palestine. I'm also aware that many in the Muslim world seem to like the Palestinian situation, because it gives them something else to complain about to the pandering leftist West.

See, even Muslims have something to lose from a free Palestinian state.

The state that is over-whelming supported by this so-called "Liberal nation" further proof that this country is not ran by liberals.

Congress is clearly liberal, so is the Supreme Court. That's 2/3 of the federal government, and Obama is leading in the polls.

Check the recent reports of U.S. torture and detainment of Muslims, including the reports of young boys who are being detained and interrogated. The U.N has called for the release of these kids. How can you contend that this country has moral authority in the world!!!

That's easy, I don't. If you don't want to be regarded as an idiot on here as you implied earlier, don't put words in my mouth, because I know I would never say that the USA has the moral high ground.

Neither does the UN, and you're talking to a former employee of that group.

Also, it's interesting how you define "kids." If kids means teenage boys, which in this case it does, then know, Nura, that we try teenage American citizen youth as adults in certain criminal cases.

Also, tell me why Muslim men run around raping women in Europe.

Funny, really. Tell me, which countries on the face of the earth that has not been colonized by Europeans in the last century? Really, who are the world's colonizers here?

North America, China, Russia, Australia, New Zealand, the list goes on...

The reality is that at some point, most nation-states had at least attempted colonization or expansion. Iran is doing this right now. Muslims were very good at this. Did you know that Algeria, Syria, Lebanon, and even Egypt were most Christian before Islamic imperialists came? Did you know that Saudi Arabia had three tribes of Jews before Mohammed killed them all?

The only reason why the Europeans get all the attention is because they were BETTER than everyone else at it and more successful.

So, I am sorry that they beat out China, India, Iran, and the Islamic Caliphate in terms of land and sea control, but it really was because of

1) Superior weaponry

2) Better skills and strategy in battle

3) Disease

4) High goals that motivated their armies

You know what the problem is here in America? Assumptions that are not supported by the facts of history or at the least Data.

Actually, America has the best education system on the planet, even with all the liberal hypocrisy. We are way ahead of anyone else, because (aside from the far left) we stick to the facts like you would not believe.

I was born in America as the rest of my family so I really don't have a choice to be here at this time. I came back because I have resolved to give dawah to my family until they all become Muslim. Within a year another one of my sisters converted to Islam. I am working on my mother and a few of my other siblings. See, I want to fee my family from the slavery of secularism. Islam is Freedom. I enjoy making people like you angry at my existence.

No, Nura, you DO have a choice. Where there is a will, there's a way.

Islam freedom? ha ha. Is that what all the mostly Muslim nations run on oppressive sharia law? Tell me, why do so many Muslims try and come to Europe if they are truly free? For the climate?

I'll believe Islam is freedom, when I see Christians openly preaching the Gospel on the streets of every major city from Casablanca to Jakarta and from Tirane to Dar Es Salaam without fear of persecution. I'll believe it when I see women dressed in bikinis going to the beach on the shores of the Persian Gulf. I'll believe it when I see King Fadh, Momar Ghaddiffi, and Majoud Ahmedinejad embrace the oppressed non-Muslims in their lands and use state funds to build Churches.

If you truly are against secularism, then do you vote democrat or republican? Because if you vote democrat, I really have to question you're determination and your real motives with da'wah.

You are free to say as you please, and I'm the last person to defend secularism, but I am free to convert Muslims and others by the droves to my Church. This is harder in Islamic lands, but I have to admit, the more oppressive they are, the more they lose.

On trying to get me angry: please don't waste your time doing this. You'll be the one writing insults long before me and having your comments edited like STS. Really, what is said on here doesn't affect my emotional status that much.

When I go outside I wear the Hijab, Jilbab, everything that is required of me and I laugh when people look at me and get upset.

Well, I've seen Muslim women with a lot less than that on......but I also see covered women because we have nuns at our Church. However, wearing the hijab isn't a requirement in Islam.

If you want to dress more modestly, that's fine with me.

You cannot change me, and people like you fume at that. That you have not control over my faith or the faith of people like me. It is a humbling that I am happy to be apart of.

Actually, I'm kind of chuckling as I write this. I'm no amateur either at blogging, and perhaps you should recognize when you do da'wah that others don't like to change either.

If anything, it's your Muslim brethren who get angry when people don't convert to Islam ie change, so many you ought to give that speech to them, or are your standards for them different because you agree on most things, if not everything?

Your attempt to make me angry failed. See, in my religion, enticing others to anger is a sin, and anger itself is a capital sin. I feel like this would be good for you, Nura: This weekend, find a Catholic Church and attend service. See if you like it.

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