For Nura: On American values and judgement

Submitted by Straight_Talk_Luigi (United States), Jun 27, 2008 at 19:13

That values that are worth anything in this country are Islamic values. Remember this country started in the 1700s. Islam came a thousand years before. The same rights that you have in this country, Islam had a thousand years ago.

In the post-Medina era, hardly. You really have never questioned the truth behind what you were taught, have you Nura? I don't know if it's arrogance or fear that's holding you back.

In orthodox Islam, Jews and Christians are subjugated under unfair taxation and anyone who is gay or does not believe in God is killed. Women are seen as less than men.

The principles of the United States are that all men and women are created equal, and those rights were given to us directly by God. In Islam, Mohammed never spoke directly to God.

Islamic values? ha ha. Then why do Muslims around the world hate America?

I think I'll stay for awhile.

I guess it must not be that bad here, then, huh?

You highlight a very good point fellow American. I have realized lately that a true Muslim does not have a nationality. It's not because we are not citizens of the country that we live in, but that once you become a Muslim or practice true Islam ANYWHERE in the world you lose your nationality.

This one-world citizen nonsense is the same thing that far-left liberals declare, although it's usually to obtain something they want.

Sorry, but the governing authority of every piece of land and sea on this planet doesn't recognize such a claim. While I guess you are Muslim wherever you go, you are still legally bound a certain nationality. Without that, you wouldn't be able to travel internationally.

The thing is, you can't get a passport from an imam, Nura.

I am not seen a an American whose family has been in this country for generations, but an Infidel. I have learned to embrace this label, because I am an infidel along with any other Muslim immigrant. Being an infidel have it's perks. I am able to see past the delusions and propaganda that this country uses to control it's constituents. I believe in the constituents of this country.

Well, I'm sorry, especially if I have offended you, but the Constitution seems pretty clear and propaganda free and simple to understand. I just think your problem is it doesn't advocate sharia law, which is what you seem to dancing around on here like most other Muslims do.

I don't think you're an infidel by any means, I just don't see why liberals, socialists and Muslims who hate this country are still here! If that's not hypocrisy, than what is? I mean, there's what? Over 200 different nation-states on the planet? Some are socialist, some are liberal, and some have sharia law. So my question is, why sit here on the internet and complain when you could be living the life you want somewhere else? Do you really think you're so special and intelligent and chosen that you're going to change people?

Honestly, who doesn't think that these days?

You don't know me.

I've read enough to know where you are coming from. I'm an experienced blogger and debater.

Despite the history, there have been always people who have and continue to stand for what is right. I have seen this with my own eyes so I cannot hate. I don't have that privilege unlike most of you.

You have the same rights as any Playboy model, so cut it with the self-loathing already. I get enough of that from liberals. Man, for someone who dislikes secularism, you sure love their tactics.

I have no doubt that Muslims have faced discrimination, and that is unfortunate. Yet, you know deep down in your heart if we allowed it, groups like CAIR would subjugate everyone else under sharia law. So don't give me that.

The life of Muslims would improve if so many of them were so bent on changing the USA into another Saudi Arabia.

But, The time is coming where ignorance will not be an excuse. God will judge the people of this nation! This nation has so much blood on it's hands that there will be a divine response. Of that I am sure. What good is Freedom and prosperity when it came from the blood of innocents?

Those statements are contradictory. It's very clear that innocence and ignorance overlap. I know for a fact that you are not sure about what sentence God will hand people, and I know he won't go exclusively by the nation we live in. As Jesus said: "It is not for you to know the times and seasons of the Father."

People fought tyranny for freedom. Sharia law and terrorism are just another kind of tyranny. You want it be special because it's from Islam. The truth is, none of Mohammed's ideas on death, judgement or subjugation were new.

Do you realize that is why our country is so rich? Why the West is so rich? Our comfort has been at the cost of other's nightmares over the past centuries. Enough consequential ethics!!! The fruit grown in poisonous dirt will be poisonous. We will reap what we have sown.

Ok, Nura:

You come across on here as a liberal suffering from white guilt. You are using the exact same arguments that non-religious whites make who pretend that they had a harem or a bunch of African slaves so that everyone else who wears a turban and has darker skin color will see them as tolerant.

These are not consequential ethics, ok? People born into the world CANNOT help where they come into, whether it's the USA or the Saudi Empty Quarter .

YES, the West has gained things unjustly, no question about it. So have Muslims. Why do you think the US government pays restitution to Natives?

But is it necessary? Let's take a look:

Before white Europeans came, Native tribes were fighting each other. In fact, it was so bad in some cases that the tribes very nearly killed each other off---before the Europeans came! I'll bet they didn't dare teach you that university, oh no! It would be RACIST! And I actually lived near an Indian Reservation.
In fact, they didn't even orginally come to rape and pillage the Natives, they came to find a natural passage to India for trade reasons. It would be a lot more effiecient because:

1) Sailing around the tips of Africa and South America are dangerous. In South America, the Straits of Magellean are a four-day journey by sail, and very dangerous, because the height of the Pacific and Atlantic vary, and winds from Patagonia create triangular shaped waves that act almost like mini-tsumanis.

This why Meriwether Lewis and Captain William Clark explored the interior USA extensively after Thomas Jefferson brought it from France. They didn't make military plans to conquer others, they went their Native guides to find the Pacific.

2) Resources, especially gold, is what drove expansion in the New World.

People in Africa, the Middle East and Asia also fought each other.

The argument is very simple, Nura:

Every single ethnic group has engaged in aggression against another at some point.

The Europeans were simply better at it, and they beat everyone else at their own game. It's as simple as that. Better strategy, better weapons, more will to win. Just like ancient Israel. They also kept better records. That's the only difference between them and the Chinese dynasty, the Mongols, Persia, the Caliphate, the Moors, Romans, Aztecs, Incas, you name it.

If you want to use the logic of restitution, fine. But remember that restitution means making exact reparation as far as possible, and it is impossible to do so in most cases. Remember, it wasn't just Europeans who were expansionist either.

You talk about judgement and death.

This is why so many Muslims are embracing Jesus. Jesus gives us hope and tells us to forgive those who have wronged us and leave it God. Radical Muslims, on the other hand, seem to think they are Allah Himself by dishing out death to everyone.

That, Nura, is the difference between Islamic ideals and Chrisitan ideals on Judgement. Jesus teaches forgiveness and the hope it offers. Orthodox Islam teaches subjugation and expansion at any cost, even the lives of Muslim children.

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